Just Keep Slashing

Post » Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:22 pm

I don't care what the combat is like, as long as it actually feels good.
User avatar
Marine Arrègle
 
Posts: 3423
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2007 5:19 am

Post » Sun Jul 04, 2010 12:10 pm

Todd Howard said in an interview (don't remember which one, pardon me) you could slash in different directions, or angle (I'm not sure what he meant, something like Oblivion with different moves for each direction or something like Dark Messiah where you control left or right up and down? Well there's not that much of a difference when you think about it!)


You`ll know what this means if you play Daggerfall. I guess this is best explained in 1st person mode. Instead of only being able to swing your sword from the right edge of the screen, you can also swing it from the left edge of the screen. It makes sense that they would bring this back because like in Daggerfall, you can actually equip weapons on your left hand. Imagine only doing swings from the right edge of your screen while wielding the blade on your left hand. I hope you get it now.
User avatar
Brandi Norton
 
Posts: 3334
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:24 pm

Post » Sun Jul 04, 2010 7:28 am

Actually, i heard you use the right anolog stick to control where and how you hit the target (thrusts, slashs to the left or right). the combat as a whole is apparently inspired by demons souls which means if you do slash slash slash, your body will fall to the floor a lifeless shell before long.

No slash slash slash.

i heard this as well, but how will this implement with into the PC.

most likely it will be slash slash block. youll still be slashing but it will be more complicated, you wont be able to swing your sword rentelessy becuse enemies will take advantage of open spots. anolog stick would be complicated and it would just but people, plus thats how you look around. blocking is now all about timing from what i heard so you cannot just raise your sheild and sit there waiting to for them to strike. so all around it will be more challanging in combat, especially on harder difficulties

finishing moves will not happend with every enemy you kill as well. but they will happen on occasion

PS if you do not like slashing alot then be a mage or an archer.
User avatar
chirsty aggas
 
Posts: 3396
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:23 am

Post » Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:18 pm

You take it wrong also
Skyrim I hope will have directional attacks again and I hope for return of different strikes thats you describe as slash, stab and chop but now they will have larger impact like slash have bleeding effect stab armor piercing, chop equipment durability damage and armors will have different protection from such strikes also.
Not again oblivion equipment thats almost don't have differences.
Need to take best features from all previous mechanics and improve them not only from one game.
Fencing will be more interesting since different weapons again will have different strikes while different armors give different protection, so even if blunt and blades in one weapon skill they will have different properties and such properties will not magically pop up when we take perk but must be already inbuilt into weapon, perks can enhance such properties by increasing magnitude and chances.

Yeah, you could differentiate a little by varying the chop and slash factor, but that system is so horribly implemented that I'd rather use the "use the strongest attack" option...

Actully, pirecing, slashing a choping had any other effect, other than different damage on weapons? Was there a functional difference between weapon types in Morrowind?
User avatar
Lucky Boy
 
Posts: 3378
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 6:26 pm

Post » Sun Jul 04, 2010 6:25 am

Yeah, you could differentiate a little by varying the chop and slash factor, but that system is so horribly implemented that I'd rather use the "use the strongest attack" option...

Actully, pirecing, slashing a choping had any other effect, other than different damage on weapons? Was there a functional difference between weapon types in Morrowind?


The only variability between weapons in Morrowind was Damage and Range. Stabbing, slashing, and chopping only modified the damage values.

Range was inherent to the weapon and its length.
User avatar
Laura Cartwright
 
Posts: 3483
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:12 pm

Post » Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:12 pm

Yeah, you could differentiate a little by varying the chop and slash factor, but that system is so horribly implemented that I'd rather use the "use the strongest attack" option...

Actully, pirecing, slashing a choping had any other effect, other than different damage on weapons? Was there a functional difference between weapon types in Morrowind?

Well think about of improved union of mechanic form previous games thats will be not step forward or backward but actual step above, for first think about beyond of Morrowind implementation of piercing, slashing and chopping, for example there is Demon's Souls implementation
http://demonssouls.wikidot.com/weapons
1. Damage Type

The damage types the weapon deals. From left to right Normal, Blunt, Slashing, Piercing. Different enemies are strong or weak to the various damage types. Pure Physical damage is okay against everything, but not strong or weak to any particular enemy. Some weapons can deal multiple damage types. Each attack from a weapon only inflicts one category of damage. For example, straight sword will use pure physical for normal attacks, and will use piercing for a strong R2 attack; daggers likely use slashing for regular attacks and piercing for strong attacks and backstabs.
Types of protection
Physical: Physical defense provided by the individual piece of armor against; Normal, Blunt, Slashing and Piercing damage, respectively.
Magic: Magic defense provided by the individual piece of armor.
Fire: Fire defense provided by the individual piece of armor.
Bleed: Bleed resistance provided by the individual piece of armor.
Poison: Poison resistance provided by the individual piece of armor.
Disease:Disease/Plague resistance provided by the individual piece of armor.
Weight: Weight of the individual piece of armor. Note that equipping more than 50% of your Equip Weight will reduce the speed of your rolls, while going over 100% will reduce your regular speed to walking and attempts to roll or backstep will leave you momentarily stunned.

As you can see there is different damage types for different attacks and weapons difference between morowind in thats enemies have increased protection from certain damage types but have vulnerability for other for example certain armored enemies will have great protection versus trust stab but vulnerable for chops and blunt damage from axes and mases, Demon Souls just forbid for weapons damage type thats is have lesser then normal damage effect for example in morrowind nothing forbid us for stabbing with hammer but player by self will release thats was stupid idea since damage output will be much smaller then using powerful chop or less powerful slash with such weapon.
2. Weapon Type

This affects the actual attacks you perform by pressing R1 or R2, and if it can parry or block when used in the left hand or two-handed. Some smaller light weapons also deal more damage from parry counters or backstabs.
I think thats will be nice addition to Skyrim since some of such features was already introduced in Oblivion like parry and blocks and counters and other can be achieved with dual wield system what was introduced in Skyrim.

3. Physical attack power

The first number is the weapons base, inherent attack power. The second number after a "+\-" is the bonus damage it is gaining from your statistics (see 6: Stat Bonuses). In the example shown above, the "+2" is the small damage bonus for that character using that weapon.

Physical base damage all weapon have it and bonus and penalty from skills and attributes, such rounded damage can be done in morrowind also as median value between maximum and minimum damage of weapon type damage, oblivion have only one such value for weapons Morrowind has three and such values was in diapason.

4. Magic attack power

Some weapons deal inherent Magical damage. Again, as with physical attack power, this inherent damage may be boosted by Stat Bonuses.
If a weapon does NOT already deal Fire or Magic damage, you can enhance it with Sticky White Stuff or one of the weapon enchantment spells to give it a powerful temporary Magic damage boost (only works on enchantable weapons).



5. Fire Attack Power

Some weapons deal inherent Fire damage. Fire damage is only very rarely boosted by Stat Bonuses.
If a weapon does NOT already deal Fire or Magic damage, you can enhance it with Turpentine or Black Turpentine to give it a temporary (but powerful) Fire damage boost (only works on enchantable weapons).


Well actually unlike of Demon Souls all weapons in TES since daggrefall can be enchanted for various magical damages thats one of great features of TES and part of enchanting system, about magical damage value there is anologue with daggerfall is more visible where is different enemies was immune to lesser materials while in next games physical damage immunity gradation was simplified to check box ignore Resist Normal Weapons effects, as well such parameter have additionall effect in Demon Souls similar to bonus damage from Intelligence and Magicka instead then from Strength and Fatigue something like ritual dagger thats become deadly in hands of mage, something like this was in Morrowind but only for Speed attribute and Short Blades but not developed into full feature and was axed in Oblivion where only Strength affect blades even such thats require be nimble like short ones, but such flaws then was fixed with mods, what is not available for console players.

6. Stat Bonuses

The bonus damage your weapon receives from your statistics. From left to right, the 4 symbols are for Strength, Dexterity, Magic, and Faith. A weapon can have a rank in order of greatest to least of S, A, B, C, D, or E in any, all, or none of these attributes. The higher the rank is, the greater the bonus it derives from that stat. This damage is added on to the base damage of the weapon as shown in 3, 4, and 5 on the screen to the right. So, as an example, either a Thief or a Priest could wield the Large Sword Of Moonlight and perform attacks exactly the same way, but the Priest will expect do significantly higher damage because the weapon Stat Bonuses indicate a strong bonus from the Faith attribute where the Priest should excel.
Note: The Stat Bonus values for Strength and Dexterity generally affect the Physical attack power (item 3), and the Magic and Faith Stat Bonuses the intrinsic Magic attack power (item 4).
Weapons with high Stat Bonus ranks scale well with high stats. In the case of some weapons with high Stat Bonuses, they may actually be weaker than a weapon with high base damage attributes and low or no Stat Bonuses until your statistics reach a higher level. This makes them stronger weapons for high level characters, but possibly worse at lower levels.


Thats exactly part of flawed attributes implementation what I described above and most powerful magnitude such flaw receive in Oblivion where is attributes greatly decrease in usability and have reduced impact on gameplay mechanic, Demon Souls use attributes in much better way then vanilla Oblivion they actually equal to skills, equipment receive bonus or penalty equally from skills and attributes, unlike of Oblivion where is attributes was gimped in compare with skills.
Only after significant modding attributes regain their powers, now when attributes was completely removed form Skyrim and uncertain thats their invisible mechanic still in game and not suffer from reduction thats make me worry about model specification since attributes was fundamental and have almost unlimited potential for implementation of features even if by self they was gimped again, modding new features and improving vanilla ones will still possible but now will require much difficult work since attributes was easy manageable tool, like changeable equipment parameters before what was axed also in Oblivion and doubtful will return in Skyrim.
7. Special attack properties

From left to right: Bleeding, Poison, Plague, and Critical Strike. Bleed, Poison, and Plague all inflict damage over time. The number given for each respective weapon shows how much damage is done over 60 seconds. For example, '360 Bleed' of Magic Sword "Makoto", if victim bleeds (heart beat sound), will deplete 6dmg/sec for 60 sec. Bleeding has a duration of 1 minute, Poison 3 minutes, and Plague 10 minutes. Poison and Plague also cut the effect of healing items, with Plague being the stronger of the two. Critical Strike deal a highly damaging blow to backstabs and ripostes.
As you can see such properties can be done in Skyrim with perks but there is question will be such properties available for weapon like inbuilt feature or they will magically pop up after we take perk?
If they will pop up thats really absurd why stabbing with before does not inflict bleeding why maces does not ignore armors before and then magically start do this?
I hope Perks must enhance chances to inflict, magnitude and duration of such effects but not grant them magically and I think its logical does not?

About Poison and Plague such features better implement as increase of number of usage of poisoned with alchemical poison weapons so they can have longer lasting poisons instead of one strike as well increased of duration o poisoning because skilled assassin know anatomy and can strike with poisoned weapon in places where is poison will work in much deadly way, not actual inbuilt poison of different potency into weapon like Demon Souls use.

Critical strikes can be based on maximum damage from weapon damage diapason and can be increased furtherer with perks and skills, certain weapons or damage types can have increased chances for critical, guaranteed critical will be in sneak attack and backstab, critical can be chance based for counters after parry.
8. Damage Reduction %

The percentage of Physical/Magical damage absorbed when you block with Weapons/Shields. If you are holding a large weapon in the offhand and block, or two handing a weapon and block, these are the percentages of physical/magical damage that will be absorbed. Most weapons are greatly inferior to shields for this purpose. An exception is the Large Sword Of Moonlight, which has a huge 80% Magic damage reduction.
Unlike of TES games weapons in Demon Souls grant similar to shield protections and parry is not absorb damage completely thats logical since thats really hard to parry two handed warr hammer with dagger does not (accordingly to Oblivion is not <_< ), but can be improved more by adding more checks into calculation
like this mod add to Oblivion
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=35933
The goal for this mod is to spice up your fights without diverging too far from vanilla combat. When somebody hits somebody else with a melee attack, this mod compares each actor's stats and actions and calculates a "stagger score" which determines if the attacker should recoil or if the target should stagger as a result of the hit. The stagger score also controls how long the stagger or recoil should last. This works for both player vs. computer and computer vs. computer combat.

The stagger score is increased by:
- attacker's level,
- attacker's weapon skill,*
- attacker's strength,
- attacker's aim (the aim bonus decreases if you're aiming to the left or right of the target),
- attacker's luck,
- if the attacker is powerattacking, and
- if the attacker is using a 2-handed weapon.**

The stagger score is decreased by:
- target's level,
- target's endurance,
- target's aim (similar to the attacker's aim bonus), and
- target's luck.
If the target blocked the attack, the following factors also get counted:
- target's block skill,* and
- if the target performed a "timed block."*


9. Guard Break Reduction

The impact resistance of a weapon (or shield) while blocking. The higher this number, the stronger a hit you can take without being staggered or having your guard broken. Blocking an attack essentially trades the HP damage for Stamina, so the highest guard break reduction you can get is good not just for withstanding more hits, but also because it more efficiently dissipates the damage (less stamina depleted per damage absorbed)

One of features what I describe above, you cannon always block successfully strikes, possibility to block must have requirements and consequences.
10. Stats Needed

Shows the required statistics to use this piece of equipment. From left to right the 4 symbols are for Strength, Dexterity, Magic, and Faith. You may be able to two hand it and get past a slightly low Strength stat score by pressing Triangle (this gives you effectively 1.5 x Strength). If you do not meet the requirements for weapons, the only penalty is reflected in a negative damage bonus as you will see reflected in the numbers shown above. However, this damage penalty is quite high, and you may find that being even 1 point short in an attribute results in such a severe penalty that almost any other weapon is a better choice. For shields, not meeting the requirement will result in a larger stamina impact when blocking, and the shield bash damage can be affected.
NOTE: Bows are always held in both hands when wielded, so you always get the 1.5x strength bonus, thus the actual requirements for using a bow are always lower than stated on the stats needed.

Yes there is is soft cap requirements for equipment they are not strict requirement thats forbid equip some equipment in inventory and make them RED and unusable but you release by self thats equipment is not designed for your current abilities when see how much fatigue is used how slow weapons strikes how slow you are move with it and how limit it yours magical and marksman abilities.
Mage with low Strength will not swing at the same speed with warhammer as warrior but able to equip such warhammer, thief cannot move fast in fullplate, barbarian without knowledge cannot invoke arcane staff at the same success as Mage.
Such flaw always become fixed with mods but always comeback in next game like cursed ladders.
11. Durability

Shown as "Current/Max". The offensive or defensive power of a piece of equipment does not degrade slowly as it is worn down, but when durability hits 30% the item will break. A broken item is 30% less effective, both for attack power and damage reduction, and at 0% durability its effectiveness will be halved. Guard break reduction and special properties is unaffected by durability. Some pieces have exceptionally low or or high durability, so expect to pay often and a lot to repair your Silver Coronet or Blind and Katanas, but a Tower Shield can take a lot of abuse. All can be repaired by Blacksmith Boldwin in The Nexus or by Blacksmith Ed in Stonefang Tunnel, and any hand-held item can be repaired in the field using the "Ed's Grindstone" consumable item. Besides normal use and abuse, there are places your equipment can be degraded dramatically, such as the acid spew from the Giant Man Centipede in the Latria swamps. Get into the habit of visiting blacksmith Boldwin whenever you return to The Nexus to get your gear back in peak shape.
Durability in TES is just timer for equipment if in Daggerfall we still have consequences in complete lost equipment at zero durability and unable repair it during travel and need to use service of blacksmith where is equipment repairs is not instantly but need time what depend on durability and cost, in next games we receive magical hammers thats fix all and if in Morrowind thats somewhere was balanced by rarity of repair hammer what have different powers and chance based repairing, Oblivion make repairing even more cheap by removing gradation in quality of repairing tools and chances from repairing, good thing thats there is few good perks what make difference in repairing magical and normal items but they are so fats achievable as well prolonged durability of hammers and never breakable hammers as master perk make game to easy since skill progression rate is really fast in Oblivion.

So adding such durability as in Demons Souls is really good idea as well it greatly work with damage diapason when sword with 15-30 damage will have reduction of damage to 1-30, or armor 20 protection with 1 out 100 durability will have reduced protection similar to reduced skills with such armor, completely broken equipment can be unequipped or even dropped by actor to ground if it weapon or shield or helm.

12. Weight

Most important for characters with low Endurance scores, some weapons or pieces of gear are exceptionally heavy, and may impede your movement speed.

Well I'd like to see encumbrance limit thats actual change character speed for both equipped gear and items in inventory
If there is no Strength and endurance attributes such parameter as encumbrance must subtracted from maximum Fatigue
its similar to dynamic encumbrance limit when player doesn't see visible difference between 99/100 and 101/100 just by picking Cursed Berry of Burden thats replaced by dynamic encumbrance when player will be slowed or forced to walk from insufficient Fatigue to initiation of Run and will faint if fatigue was completely used by encumbrance or walk so slowly in outside of combat and have great chances falling to the ground from attack of enemy, as well I'd like to see thats encumbrance limit sneaking abilities of actor since cumbersome items can increase noise of actor in great way.
All of this can be manageable by perks and traits
Starting trait strong can increase encumbrance limit as well as add some additional damage to certain weapons and be useful for intimidation
Perks from Heavy Armors skill tree can reduce penalty from equipping heavy equipment as well decrease fatigue usage for them, perks from mercantile perk tree can decrease speed and fatigue penalty from inventory weight, perks from light armors and from sneak skill will reduce penalty to sneak from encumbrance.
The only variability between weapons in Morrowind was Damage and Range. Stabbing, slashing, and chopping only modified the damage values.

Range was inherent to the weapon and its length.

Yes it was variability between weapons damage was not constant value and have certain range, so weapons can have critical strikes, unlucky strikes as well with such damage diapason we can model weapon sharpness or damage potential rusty dagger will have 1-10 damage while normal dagger will have 5-10 and razzor sharp will have 10-10 damage

Also certain weapons was better in certain strikes in logical way short swords and daggers was good for stabbing but bad for chopping, axes was good for chopping but was bad for stabbing whats is logical since axe cannot do it well but have possibility for this so nothing forbid for you stab enemies with axe but you release by self thats ineffective because most of axes is not designed for stabbing.
problem of morrowind weapon damage calculation was in
- too small lower cap for weapon damage for most of weapons
for example
Daedric Claymore Chop 1?60 Slash 1?52 Thrust 1?36
Guaranteed minimal damage was 1 where it can be around of half of maximum damage for this type of strike but not 1

- unfinished conception of usage of such strikes and protection from them
logically was be add side effects to Chops Slash and Thrust to increase diversity between them so weapons will have difference no only in damage but also in side effects
as well such effects can be added as different protection values for armors so for example chain mails can be good in protection versus slash thats mostly used for swords but have decreased protection versus trust what used by daggers arrows and spears, and poor for bludgeoning damage from blunt maces and axes not like overall protection from all what used in Oblivion

In morrowind we have more parameters to model diversity in equipment in Oblivion devs axe such diversity and all weapons become too generalized and generic they even dont have differences for effects from power attacks dagger and long blade are the same, axe and mace are the same, what forbid devs combine different damage values and diapasons with new combat mechanic? They can both work in union well.
I dont say thats morrowind is best game ever and dont have flaws but from two games Morrowind was closer to best mechanic because have more parameters to models such features in Oblivion we see horrible reduction of equipment variability.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Base_Weapons
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Weapons
User avatar
Enny Labinjo
 
Posts: 3480
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 3:04 pm

Post » Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:03 pm

That actually sounds like it will be really boring combat.... Hopefully it was only typical fighting from that NPC, but if there aren't NPCs that press the attack and keep you on YOUR toes that would indicate that when they observed the martial artists to get ideas about combat, they did something VERY wrong.


I did martial arts for about ten years (Tae Kwon Do) and this is actually pretty much exactly how it works. Same with boxing. You spend most of the time hanging back, watching how your opponent moves, throwing in a punch or kick once in a while to see how they react. Then, when you think you know how to get the upper hand, you press the attack. Going gung ho all the time is a really easy way to let yourself make mistakes and give your opponent more opportunities to use your momentum against you. And if you really need to spend a long time attacking, that just means you're not hitting hard enough or in the right places. A real fight, ideally, would only take one actual attack. One hit KOs are beautiful things. It's an extremely tactical sport, which is exactly what the devs said they were going for. I'd say they seem to have gotten it exactly right.
User avatar
danni Marchant
 
Posts: 3420
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:32 am

Previous

Return to V - Skyrim