Justice System In Skyrim : V - Skyrim

» Sat Apr 30, 2011 2:40 am

If there is going to be a hardcoe mode I would totally go for an execution. I also think that having your crimes rack up and turn into an execution is good, because it removes the option of, "eh, if I get caught I serve some time, and then poof, I am back out and free to go." I also think that hardened criminals should be watched more carefully by NPC's. For instance, if you see a hardened criminal come into your store, and then walk to the stoarage area, you don't just allow him to rummage through your stuff and put [censored] in his backpack... you call for the guards!

» Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:51 pm

I think the justice system should stick and here's why:

A new system saying innocent until proven guilty etc. etc. would be awesome if done well (which of course it would be). However a long drawn out process of going to jail would break the flow and immersion of the game. Keep getting caught short and simple, keep things moving. Realism is great, but remember, it's still a game.

» Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:41 am

I like the idea of a trial. Toss in family and friends of the victims... that should bet interesting for the Ted Bundies out there. But most of all this would make speechcraft more interesting. The more people that see you the less of a chance you have to lie or bedazzle people with your speech for clemency. This would make it easier to take someone down or rob someone alone word against word.

But at the same time if you took a fine red robe from a Dunmer and they reported it and you still have it in your possession then it will be hard to get off. Similarly if you killed a Nord with a giant maul and they apprehend you soon after and you had a giant maul on you well good luck. If enough time passes then items on your person can't be linked quite as strongly to the crime.

And instead of just jail, fine or Scott free perhaps they could have the stocks or a beating. And if the people are mad they mob up and have their own justice.

Great suggestion Lie Bei. This is would make the consequences so much more interesting and "real", adds a brilliant new aspect to speachcraft and make it feel less jarring when you are caught, "Pay or serve time" PS we will take all stolen items form you even if they were never reported as stolen.

Ohh you can even develop a criminal past making it a little harder each time to clear your name, having to pay more for crimes and serving more time. Where is Skyrims Alcatrez?

Crime and punishment should be a big part of the story. It would be cool to see the game play about how the crime system will work and will change. It be nice to see gaurd and courts at the begining being very harsh at you cause your a no body. Now once people start to learn your dragon born it would feel more apporite for them to be more willing to look the other way for small crimes as you are the last hope for skyrim.

» Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:33 am

I think the justice system should stick and here's why:

A new system saying innocent until proven guilty etc. etc. would be awesome if done well (which of course it would be). However a long drawn out process of going to jail would break the flow and immersion of the game. Keep getting caught short and simple, keep things moving. Realism is great, but remember, it's still a game.

Then you can just always plead guilty. It only is drawn out if you want to prove your innocence. If you plead guilty you'd just get your sentence and go to jail/get fined in what i would imagine being 20 seconds at most if you speed through it.

» Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:32 am

But at the same time if you took a fine red robe from a Dunmer and they reported it and you still have it in your possession then it will be hard to get off. Similarly if you killed a Nord with a giant maul and they apprehend you soon after and you had a giant maul on you well good luck. If enough time passes then items on your person can't be linked quite as strongly to the crime.

This would make you need to store stolen items in you're hideout or whatever more often. I don't want guards to somehow know your items are stolen though, so only items recently stolen and reported to the guards should be put into question (but there are a lot of leather helmets, glass daggers etc. out there, so the person who accuses you should have to prove it's his/hers, or at least persuade the judge)

EDIT: also this is where your priors would matter. If you're know for being a thief then it'll be harder to convince the judge that you didn't steal.

Ohh you can even develop a criminal past making it a little harder each time to clear your name, having to pay more for crimes and serving more time. Where is Skyrims Alcatrez?

Hm, maybe Labyrithian should just be a huge Prison/Dungeon now. It's been a long time since Arena.

» Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:02 am

I'd love this, but that's perhaps because I'm a law student.

Still, it would be great to be able to ... defend yourself. Argue for your cause.
It shouldn't be too hard to accomplish in TES. Just requires some dialouge lines

» Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:24 am

I LOVED Daggerfall's system! Daggerfall was not my favorite ES game, but it did have some great features that I missed in Morrowind and Oblivion, this being one.

Yes here DF had the best system just like Arena had the best bargaining system... ( http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1174264-a-better-bargain/page__p__17341897__fromsearch__1#entry17341897 )... Morrowinds had the best and most customized land... and Oblivion had... ergh..... hmmm.... nevermind....
Another great feature was that enough murders could get you banned from the region...

» Sat Apr 30, 2011 1:26 pm

and with 3. yeah if priors stacked up it would make trying not to get caught all the more important, but i agree you should have means to get your priors off your record (such as working with the imperial legion AND/OR the thieves guild.

perhaps if bounty was regional/area/indevidual personal it would work... also it would be cool if there was a heavily guarded place (if you break in here and are cought the guards will attack on sight...) were each city/region/area/something else stored papers listing all local criminals old and new crimes... the things you could do here would be aply things to yours/other peoples papers, remove things from yours/other peoples papers, or completely take the papers... (if a recent crime is removed or a recent criminals papers dissapear they'd just give the person an outright death-warrent for attempt of manipulating with bounty's...

» Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:09 pm

I think a justice system like that of Daggerfall's would be really interesting to see, however many of the suggestions have been modeled after the modern judicial system. This is not the case:

"The Tamriel legal system has its basis in the civilized, reasonable credo uttered by the prophet Marukh in the first era: "All are guilty until they have proven themselves innocent." Were truer word ever spoke?"

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/daggerfall-legal-basics

» Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:16 pm

I think a justice system like that of Daggerfall's would be really interesting to see, however many of the suggestions have been modeled after the modern judicial system. This is not the case:

"The Tamriel legal system has its basis in the civilized, reasonable credo uttered by the prophet Marukh in the first era: "All are guilty until they have proven themselves innocent." Were truer word ever spoke?"

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/daggerfall-legal-basics

the first era huh? so many philosophical and judicial breakthroughs may have happened between then and the 4th era or since it was in Daggerfall in the third era and 200 or so years later in skyrim.

» Sat Apr 30, 2011 2:51 am

If they were able to implement something like this then there should also be cases where you are accused of crimes you didn't commit. It's only fair, right?

» Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:19 am

I dont really like the death sentence thing because Evil characters would be much harder to play that way

» Sat Apr 30, 2011 1:46 am

If they were able to implement something like this then there should also be cases where you are accused of crimes you didn't commit. It's only fair, right?

yeah definentely. There could be a quest that kinda would introduce you to the system of pleading innocent.

Right when you walk into a town for the or second time someone yells:

"There he is!! Thats the [insert race here] that killed my wife!!!"
Guards come over and arrest you

Spoiler:
The person who accuses you is actually the murderer.

» Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:19 am

the first era huh? so many philosophical and judicial breakthroughs may have happened between then and the 4th era or since it was in Daggerfall in the third era and 200 or so years later in skyrim.

With all the chaos of the decline of the Empire and end of the Septim dynasty, I doubt any philosophical or judicial changes would've included more mercy. When the world is crashing down around you and there's no definite promise for safety, people tend to become more conservative; especially so with justice. I don't see anyone going against centuries of established precedence out of concern for the unalienable rights of their neighbors when they also have to be concerned about the safety of their and their family's own lives, as well as the stability of their province.

It'd still be interesting to see something similar to the court system that was in Daggerfall. If you can argue your case and prove your innocence, or plead guilty and get a lesser sentence, it'd add a whole new dynamic to the game. I'm interested in seeing what happens.

» Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:36 am

The only thing that I really require is no omnipotent guards, if those are in Ill be so mad.

» Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:21 am

We mostly all agree that guards shouldn't be all-knowing like they were in Oblivion, but in regards to after you are already caught, Daggerfall had a system in place where, once you agreed to come with the guards, you could plead guilty, or not guilty in front of a judge.

This was how Daggerfall's system worked:

Pleading guilty--->judge goes a little easier on your prison sentence
Pleading not guilty---> chose to either "Lie" or "Debate" about your crime to prove innocence

Failure to Prove innocence with Lie or Debate---> Maximum jail sentence
Success in proving innocence---> you get no sentence. you are free and your name is cleared.

^i don't think a system this simple should be in Skyrim, but i'm just saying this was pretty cool for a game made at that time.

In addition to this, I want a death sentence if your crimes are bad enough... Imagine being publicly beheaded or hanged in first person.

That is cool but i dont wana go trough all that for every fork i steal

» Sat Apr 30, 2011 2:17 am

This would also make speechcraft a more valued skill for sneaky thievy players.

» Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:26 am

This is Skyrim, not Cyrodiil. The law works differently here, and by that I mean an axe to the neck is much more efficient than supposed "justice."

» Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:54 am

I pretty much liked the way it was in Oblivion.

The only changes I would like to see are:

1. After enough time, the Guards "forget" and your bounty goes down on it's own.

2. only unique items should be tagged as stolen. If I steal someone's shirt and it's not unique or part of a quest, I shouldn't have guards from another city arresting me for it.

» Sat Apr 30, 2011 1:04 pm

I would like to see the return of a Daggerfall-Esq justice system, I do think Justice systems is one of ES's more clever yet flawed systems so I will be curious to see how it goes.

» Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:03 am

That is cool but i dont wana go trough all that for every fork i steal

I guess the punishment would fit the crime bee, stealing a fork would probably amount to a very small fine and wouldn't involve the courts. I think Jail time is a good idea for bigger crimes, this would also give the player a chance to escape. > How about seeing our hero tortured for plain nasty crimes? (Including some stat loss) I guess Execution could be for really evil criminals who persistantly offend?

Would be nice if Beth have something similar in skyrim.

» Sat Apr 30, 2011 3:30 am

The only changes I would like to see are:

1. After enough time, the Guards "forget" and your bounty goes down on it's own.

2. only unique items should be tagged as stolen. If I steal someone's shirt and it's not unique or part of a quest, I shouldn't have guards from another city arresting me for it.

I like these ideas. At least for the small thefts it would make sense to be able to hide for a while and get away with it. Nobody will put your picture on the walls because they saw you stealing a spoon. The "stolen" tag on items in Oblivion pretty much killed the thieving fun (alongside the loot scaling). Nobody should know an item is stolen unless:
- it's theirs
- it was a unique well known artifact

» Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:33 pm

Other on all.

What Skyrim should have is a harsher justice system, one similar to the Salic code used by the cultures the Nords are based on. In practice, this would be pretty damn close to the justice system in Morrowind and Oblivion - if you commit a crime, you are required to pay a statutory fine to your victim (or their family, if the crime was murder). Outlaws are exempt from the protection of the law. The only thing you'd really need to change to bring it in more in line would be some way to model blood feuds.

On the other hand, it would be interesting to see that contrasted with a more "civilized" legal system in the Imperial-controlled holds.

» Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:53 am

Something that I haven't seen mentioned (although I have not read the entire thread) is that depending on your fame some guards should be willing to overlook certain crimes, especially considering that you're the Dovahkiin who is going to save Skyrim.

» Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:54 am

I voted for 1 on first 2 on second and 3 on third, but for the third, if there is a death sentence (and this is in the game...) then you should be able to escape from prison (like I assume prior TES games, as I never got into jail because I either payed from thieves guild or never got caught...) because if you were sentenced to death, and you couldn't escape their would be no more point to the game... Also, if you could/ did escape, you should be hunted down until you are able to find some high up person to pay off or something...