We mostly all agree that guards shouldn't be all-knowing like they were in Oblivion, but in regards to after you are already caught, Daggerfall had a system in place where, once you agreed to come with the guards, you could plead guilty, or not guilty in front of a judge.

This was how Daggerfall's system worked:

Pleading guilty--->judge goes a little easier on your prison sentence
Pleading not guilty---> chose to either "Lie" or "Debate" about your crime to prove innocence


Failure to Prove innocence with Lie or Debate---> Maximum jail sentence
Success in proving innocence---> you get no sentence. you are free and your name is cleared.

^i don't think a system this simple should be in Skyrim, but i'm just saying this was pretty cool for a game made at that time.

In addition to this, I want a death sentence if your crimes are bad enough... Imagine being publicly beheaded or hanged in first person.

I LOVED Daggerfall's system! Daggerfall was not my favorite ES game, but it did have some great features that I missed in Morrowind and Oblivion, this being one.

I didn't know daggerfall had such a system, sounds neat. We really need a system were npcs react more logically to your crimes. In Oblivion, I was often charged for assault, even if was standing right next to the corpse of an npc when the guards arrested me. :rolleyes:

I wouldn't want a death sentence tough, that's a bit too much, unless we can pay off our fines to the thieves guild or whatever faction it will be.

I said:

1. Yes! A better system than "stop criminal scum!" money, jailtime, or death.

2. Other. Only if they make knocking you out really fair. If I am clad in heavy armor and enraged and fighting to the death, I don't want to some one shot spell to knock me over and they get me. It would have to be more like, if your wearing some plain clothes they can get you more easily.

3. Only if they can be removed. I could only imagine if someone is a theif or troublemaker how fast that could build up to death penalty. You should be able to do things to remove them.

On a side note, if you get the death penalty, you should be able to get out of somehow. It's not gurentee'd but you have a chance. However, this would make you wanted and guards you attack or try to capture you on sight. Some sort of system like that would be cool.

wow that sounds really diverse for an old game such as daggerfall. i wonder why they got rid of it someone must have found a fault with it

with 2. i was imagining something like if you lose all your fatigue you can be detained.

and with 3. yeah if priors stacked up it would make trying not to get caught all the more important, but i agree you should have means to get your priors off your record (such as working with the imperial legion AND/OR the thieves guild.

I just thought of something else that might make the justice system more of an "experience", but it definitely might be too much. If you want to contest your conviction, they try to provide evidence/witnesses against you. They question you and, based on your answers, you are found guilty or not guilty

Back then people accused people of being witches and just drowned them to see.... They didn't need evidence, they could just accuse them of something, I think a guard should arrest you sometimes for small crimes or big crimes even without evidence, but if your speech skill is decent, then they will get evidence before conviction...

I think the law position towards the player should deppend on his/her status. if wealthy or powerfull, should be inocent until proven guilty and if not should be guilty until proven inocent.

Maybe the major cities should have this penal system, but some towns should be a little less civil.

Both of the two posts above sum up my thoughts rather well. It screams of realism without taking away from the gaming experience.

Getting brought to a judge would be kinda cool. If you were going to be executed I'd hope an NPC that likes you would try to make a jail break to help you though.

One of the coolest things that happened to me when I was playing Oblivion I was at a low level and picked a fight with an imperial city guard (wanted his helmet) the fight was kind of close except he was definitely winning we we're both nearly dead when I decided to retreat err..I mean formulated a plan to tired him out by chasing me to lake rumare. When we got across the bridge we started fighting again when out of the blue the old fisherman that lives in a shack randomly popped out of his house pulled out an axe and helped me finish off the guard and told me how happy he was to see his old friend. I was very surprised and pleased... that my formulated plan worked out so well of course.

If you're the grandmaster of the Thieves Guild I'm sure they can rescue you.

YES!


YES!


YES, If i kill enough people, eventually I will get a death sentence and watch my character get executed in front of a crowd.

EDIT: If im wanted enough they should send bounty hunters, have my poster posted and, maybe have me in the newspaper.

The crime system is one of my most anticipated features to see revealed. So many things they could do with it and I'm really interested to see how it turned out.

I'm playing Two Worlds 2 right now and when I steal from a house nothing happens if I'm not seen. Hopefully it's the same for Skyrim.

Interesting concept. Yes, Other, Other.

Q1. They should definitely adopt some sort of judiciary. I also like the ideas of wealthy/famous/charismatic people getting better treatment in the Courts, with poor/infamous/droll people being mistreated and less civil rural justice. But to add onto this Rebels should give you harsher penalties if you tend to ally yourself more to the Loyalists, and vice versa. It is a civil war after all.
Also being able to meet with the Magistrates and bribe them when you aren't being tried would be... interesting.

Q2. Other. They should be able to capture you, under certain circumstances. Moreover if you kill another guard they should stop trying to capture you.

Q3. Other. Priors should be recorded and able to be expunged, and should be weighed only in deciding your sentence.

I don't see how that's different than option 3.

I love the bounty hunter idea! That way if you have a huge bounty on your head you're never totally safe, you would have to stay on your guard since those bounty hunter could show up at any moment (maybe even while you sleep!)

Q1: It was sometimes rather silly in obliv and I think it should be more like "innocent untill proven guilty". But tbh, it'd be equally silly for this medievalish fantasy world to adopt that principle to much. I mean, this is a, somewhat, barbaric country in civil war and assaulted by dragons, they're not gonna be all "human rights"ey and all. To summarize, I think you should be brought in no matter what, but could plead not guilty instead.

Q2: Maybe that, when you die whilst resisting arrest, you don't "die" but get more like "severely wounded and knocked out". Having resisted arrest would then more or less be the same as pleading guilty only that you wouldnt get a shorter sentence.

Q3: I don't really think a death penalty would be very fitting here. Out of a gameplay perspective, it'd svck if my lvl 50 warrior got tied down and had his head chopped of without a fight. What COULD however be done, IMO, is that when you reach a certain bounty, guards simply stop trying to bring you in and try to kill you. Like how they did when you were the gray fox in obliv. This'd ofc require a way to atone for ones crimes. Bribery makes perfect sense, being stuck in some penal legion would also make sense, but that'd involve A LOT of work on Bethesdas part. Being pardoned by a powerfull friendly npc'd be kinda nice too.

And the more you kill, the more formidable bounty hunters start to hunt you, because your bounty will be higher.

I just wanted to say that presumption of innocence isn't necessarily a modern concept: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi

And the capturing you against your will: it should definitely depend on how you're resisting arrest. If you're cutting down everyone who's in your way they shouldn't be wasting time trying to knock you out when they could be trying to kill you instead.

Agreed on the bounty hunters.

About death sentances, i want them. but. everytime a player recieves a death penalty for the first time you will initiate a quest so you wont actually be executed, then the 2nd time you'll have a shot at busting out of the prison once they're taking you to the gallows by using your untied feet and dragonshouts from your untied mouth. "ROOOOAR *run*" (not your lucky day guards!, tie my mouth up next time)

Death Sentences sound pretty harsh well unless your the Grey Fox you pretty much got a death sentences

I like the idea of a trial. Toss in family and friends of the victims... that should bet interesting for the Ted Bundies out there. But most of all this would make speechcraft more interesting. The more people that see you the less of a chance you have to lie or bedazzle people with your speech for clemency. This would make it easier to take someone down or rob someone alone word against word.

But at the same time if you took a fine red robe from a Dunmer and they reported it and you still have it in your possession then it will be hard to get off. Similarly if you killed a Nord with a giant maul and they apprehend you soon after and you had a giant maul on you well good luck. If enough time passes then items on your person can't be linked quite as strongly to the crime.

And instead of just jail, fine or Scott free perhaps they could have the stocks or a beating. And if the people are mad they mob up and have their own justice.

Great suggestion Lie Bei. This is would make the consequences so much more interesting and "real", adds a brilliant new aspect to speachcraft and make it feel less jarring when you are caught, "Pay or serve time" PS we will take all stolen items form you even if they were never reported as stolen.

Ohh you can even develop a criminal past making it a little harder each time to clear your name, having to pay more for crimes and serving more time. Where is Skyrims Alcatrez?

I think they should have to actually catch you in the act or find the body. If you can pilfer something and no one saw you then thast item should be considered legal. I hated that in Oblivion i could spend the time to try and steal an item with out a witness yet the item i stole was still considered stolen even thought no one saw me steal it. The same for murder, if you can kill an NPC and dispose of the body before someone sees you then no crime was commited, of course companions may have thier own viewpoint on the killing ot theivery which would also add some detail to them as well.

Asai