I'm a bit confused on something though...Sheogorath is the "Sithis-shaped hole" Lorkhan left, which in turn makes him the Serpent constellation. So...the "real" SHEOG is JYG now... is the hole now closed, with SHEOG's duties belonging to someone else? What are the potential implications of this occurence?

I feel that's a valid question. Lorkhan's "death" created the "original, true" SHEOG, but now, while JYG and SHEOG are actually the same thing, SHEOG is technically gone, since the Prince of Madness is now the CoC, a mortal with no connection to JYG/SHEOG.

edit: I said "now" TOO many damn times

One school of thought says that the PC (in KOTN) is an Avatar of Lorkhan anon Akatosh (both) and by becoming the Madgod he just got infused with their common schizophrenic madness Pelinal already had to have. And since the Heart (some say, I don't) is "free" somehow now (which I disagree with, because it was only un-enchanted, but the heart never was held by an enchantment originally) they think that the old geezer is going back again. This way there's no more hole, because Lorkhan just got back what was his. The only thing which remains is to crush the moons into Nirn (to get his body back so to speak).

Another school of thought is that the PC IS Jyggalag IS Sheogorath. The cycle is still in action, but you got 1000 years again.

There are others too of course.

I don't agree with the whole "Lorkhan is coming back" idea, either. I mean, Nirn IS Lorkhan, right? If he were to come back wouldn't that rip the very fabric of Nirn apart? So why would Lorkhan want to destroy Nirn? I mean, he's the guy who came up with the idea to create it in the first place.

Of course, before the release of SI I didn't think the PC would become Sheogorath, and then look what happened.....so I could be wrong about this, too.

MK said so. Disagreeing with MK is like disagree with Stalin. You'll be kidnapped in the middle of the night and be returned to your home brainwashed, preeching that Shezarr will return.

And yes, Shezarr reviving would destroy Nirn. Hence "Landfall", hence "end of the world".

He doesn't care about Nirn. It didn't work, so his thoughts are that he might as well just abort mission and go back tot he drawing board.

Oh, you bloody loon.

I don't recall anything written about Lorkhan's return, by MK or anyone else.

When did MK say that? I've been gone for quite awhile, so i've probably missed alot of things that have gone on here.

Please, don't make me fish through the topics until I find it. I specifically remember MK mentioning his intention that if Shezarr were to be revived it would correlate to the end of Nirn. Luckily he doesn't work for Bethesda so we may never see that (and that's assuming that he had intention to actually do it in the first place).

1. Fortunately, he still works for, and has contact with, Bethesda.

2. I'll believe it if I see it, in context. I've been here long enough to know people's memories can barely be trusted until something's repeated ad nauseam.

While he didn't just come out and say it, he DID hit a thread I started with a while back that asked what Lorkhan was doing with a "Patience" reply; I think it's easy to extrapolate from that that Lorkhan is gonna make some sort of return to do just that, unless some other entity knows what Lorkhan was trying to do and is just withholding information.

I'm certain he als said that TES V, in some sort of fashion, would take place "on" Nirn's moons, which could mean inside their planes; I recall this in maybe 2 threads, at least one. While I doubt they'll be predominately on the moons, I'm sure they'll be involved alot.

Well, no, it just means we'll find out what Lorkhan's been doing, not necessarily that he's going to make a return.


I only recall this being a joke about Todd shooting down an idea that TESIV be set on a Secunda moon colony. It's an open secret that the next game is going to be in Skyrim. But seeing as I don't think it's even past the design phase yet, that might change.

Open secret? If you're referring to that whole patent-filing thing that came up awhile back, I hardly think that constitutes any real grounds for proof of an "open secret." Unless there's been other hints since then that i'm not aware of, which again is entirely possible given my absence from the forums the last couple months.

Well, who else could know besides Lorkhan? While I'll agree that that idea may not just be iron clad, but I feel it's extremely likely.

It would be awesome if a TES game took place on the moon(s).

I was thinking about something today; I wanna know how people feel about a JYG-is-SHEOG-is-LORKHAN-is-AKATOSH idea: Lorkhan created Sheogorath when he was killed in his respective Enantiomorph. SHEOG IS Jyggalag; therefore, through the whole Enantiomorphic he-is-my-opposite-therefore-the-same business AND the fact that SHEOG wouldn't exist without Lorkhan's obliteration, I believe these two sets of Mirror-forms are, in essence, the same.

Your thoughts?

I don't think he just blantantly doesn't give a crap; I think his "resurrection" is going to be in the defense of Nirn, if not mortals, against a threat from somewhere; perhaps the Ayleids? Maybe they're gonna activate that Tower Wheel.

Concerning Landfall, I DO feel like that it's obviously gonna involve Lorkhan; I also feel the moons are going to be involved. Perhaps the moons are gonna fall on Nirn, doing some major damage - hence, Landfall. Maybe that'll happen.

Maybe. I was under the impression there was more than that. Like leaked concept art.


The beauty of narratives is that they don't have to be interviews. And just because we don't know where Lorkhan is doesn't mean someone else hasn't written a treatise on the subject. There's more than one way in which the information can be given, other than just Lorkhan returning and saying "here I am. Lorkhan smash!"


I'd be more inclined to believe that if the Loveletter connected Lorkhan directly to Landfall, instead of, seemingly, salvation from Landfall.

The Bosmer hokerr ranting about the Akaviri coming could corroborate with being in Skyrim. Think about it: Akaviris invade, Imperial cohesion is a joke, weakened Tribunal-less Nerevarine-less Morrowind falls quickly, and the Children of Skyrim classically won't go down without one hell of a fight.

They even have an "ancient elven race that's disappeared" like MW and OB did. I expect we'll see Falmeri ruins as a dungeon type.

Though the logic is certainly interesting, the ravings of a mad Bosmer hardly constitute as "hard evidence." It could be insane gibberish for all we know....I mean, he IS insane afterall. Right?


Think about it: The only two pieces of "evidence" we have are a patent that Bethesda filed for the name "The Elderscrolls: Skyrim" and the words of a Bosmer who is out of his mind. The former can be explained away as Beth covering their asses in the event somebody decides to make an entirely different game with the same, or similar sounding, name (companies file patents all the time on things they don't intend on producing right away so that, 5 or 10 or more years down the road when they DO decide to produce it, it's THEY that have the copyright to that name....not somebody else), and the latter can be explained away as insanity by an insane person.

When I say "evidence" I mean concept art, quotes by Devs hinting at the fact, or even in-game things that hint towards it that have more merit (The rumor in Morrowind of Imperial Troops being recalled to Cyrodill, the prophecy in Bloodmoon given to the Nerevarine by the witch, etc. All of these had more merit than a crazy Bosmer spouting nonsense). Though i'll admit the patent thing is probably a legitimate peice of evidence, on it's own without other such evidence it amounts to nothing more than Smart Business Sense on Beth's part.


In any event, i'm going to stop talking about this now for fear of de-railing the topic any further than is socially acceptable in the Lore part of the forums.

Patenting only TES: Skyrim is pretty much a giveaway IMHO. The only remaining question is if it's going to be a CRPG or just another in-between adventure/action game. You wouldn't patent just one province if it was for "defense" purposes.

MK worked on Oblivion?

What world-shattering evil of impending-doom could Skyrim house?

Not all TES games need a world-shattering evil of impending-doom, but the current zeitgeist of epic fantasy games sorta demand it.

Like I said, it's probably a very legitimate piece of evidence, but having JUST that alone doesn't mean the next TES is going to be in Skyrim. On it's own it's shaky and can be easily explained by many other excuses (not just the one I used), but put it with other pieces of evidence and THEN we'll have something solid. But basing it alone on just a simple patent isn't enough, IMO.

First I'd like to say that I don't want to "attack" your opinion in any way which might make you angry or anything, so please don't take this wrong, but..

IMHO this is THE strongest possible evidence. It's stronger than anything in the game. If a guy in the game told me "the next game is going to be in Argonia" and then Beth patents Skyrim, I'd bet my wager on the next game being Skyrim. Why? Simple, because money talks (sad but true), while Lore gets "fixed".
Just how I see things.

The strongest possible evidence would obviously be the devs confirming that TES: Skyrim is in production.

I find the whole chain of PC is Sheogorath is Jyggalag is Lorkhan is Akatosh to frankly be... crap.

Sheogorath was "created" when Lorkhan's spark was removed. People are, imho, interpreting far too much into that sentence. It's pretty easy for me. Lorkhan was behind the whole idea of creating Mundus as it is. When you remove the heart and the brain of a project as large as that and in a very violent fashion, things go crazy. Enter Sheogorath. That's all there is to me.

You're using the term Enantiomorph entirely too lightly, I have the impression that you (and perhaps others) are not knowing exactly what it means. The Enantiomorph isn't just being a mirror image. There's a lot more to it. The relation to Akatosh and Lorkhan, a female principle, a witness. To boil it down into one sentence, an Enantiomorph always includes mirror images (they can even be in one person - see Pelinal) of a sort and relates to mythic events, but not every mirror image is an Enantiomorph.
The Tribunal are a very good example, imitating the ancient [censored] of the world, drawing power from the mythic (two males, one female, a witness (Alandro Sul)), but they are not "the Enantiomorph".

Aaah, it does make a little more sense when I look at it like that. I do tend to forget the other parts of the Enantiomorph when it comes up.

But I have a question about the original Enantiomorph: if Akatosh and Lorkhan are the two males, and Nirn (I suspect) is the female, who was the witness? The only possible one I could consider is the Aldmer.