OK i need some info on jygallaag, i know that he is the prince of order, which literally covers everything mundane and predicting stuff, but this sort of sounds like Hermeaus Mora's realm, especially the part about the library.

1. Is there any relation between Jygallag and Hermeaus Mora, both have librarires which contain infinite prophecies and such, as the caretaker said.
2. The Shivering Isles, is that the name of the land or is it the name of the land when Sheogorath rules it.
3. Where do the people in SI come from, not mazken or aureal.
4. We have supposedly broken the cycle, so what does that mean for jygallag and sheogorath.
5. Will it be written in lore that the champion of cyrodil was also sheogorath.
6. Is haskill immortal like jygallags trapped chamberlain guy.
7. How did the other daedric princes transform jygallag into shegorath.
8. Your personnel opinion on the future of sheogorath/jygallag/ the shivering isles.

1. No. Jyg's sphere is Order (don't get that too confused with Anu's stasis). Herma Mora's sphere is Fate, literally all the things that are happening.
2. thats the name of the land when Sheog rules it. Whey Jyg had/has it, its the SHIMMERING Isles
3. Don't know. Haven't played TES IV enough
4. Jyg is supposedly wandering Oblivion. CoC is Sheog now. That will probably get clarified more in the thread.
5. Probably not. CoC is Sheog now, in practically every sense of the word in my opinion.
6. I'm sure. They're mirror opposites, the way I see it.
7. According to lore, he was cursed by the Lords. Another idea is that he was changed into Sheog by the creation of Mundus. Once again, this will probably be clarified later on.
8. Sheog will do what Sheog does: be Sheog.... The same concerning SI. Jyg's fate is kinda confusing me now. In MY opinion, the same crap is gonna happen that happened in SI: Jyg's gonna keep coming back.

Daedra lords often have spheres that overlap. Pyrite's is the "Ordering of the Lowest Orders of Oblivion" or something like that--you think that would overlap with Jygallag's, but it apparently doesn't.

Probably the later. "Shivering Isles" is a pretty insane name, since there's only one island and it doesn't shiver. I'd imagine that if Jygallag succesfully took over, the name would be changed to something more logical.

The impression I got is that they came from Tamriel, and ventured into Sheogorath's realm when they went insane. I don't think there's any official explanation, though.

We'll have to wait for a sequal to find out.

I'd imagine so, since that's what happened.

Haskill is a Daedroth, and all Daedra are immortal.

They're all gods. And there were over a dozen of them and only one of him. You do the math.

I'm not convinced that all that stuff about Jygallag being cursed into Sheogorath is actually true. After all, we only have Jygallag's word for it, and he's a form of Sheogorath. Sheogorath is the lord of all mental illness, and Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (which is what Jygallag basically seems to be the embodument of) is a mental illness. So is split personality disorder (one person turning into another person then back again) and paranoid schizophrenia (thinking your neighbors, in this case the other Daedra Lords, are conspiring against you.)

So my personal interperetation is that everything we saw in "Shivering Isles" was part of Sheogorath's delusions. I ain't a dev', so don't take me seriously, though.

If I'm wrong, then I bet that Jygallag will eventually return to the Shivering Isles and try to "order" it again. Since he's a logical fellow, he'll probably be back with a better strategy, and it'll probably be [censored] awesome. Can a brotha' get a multi-realm war between every Daedric Lord?

My take on that, though is that all of that effort went into making such fun lore and it gets dismissed because 'it was all a dream.' That's why I'm a fan of the idea that the CoC did indeed go insane, but there is this new Daedric Prince...

Additionally, Doors of Oblivion and Imperial Census of the Daedra makes reference to Sheogorath's realm as the Mad House...

That "it was all a dream" thing is extremely lame to me. And extremely expected; it's even happened before in a piece of lore so that makes it worse.

If they do that, i'd stab myself in the face with a butterknife.

Hmmm....if it was a matter of the player simply going insane, then that would account for how he/she manages to hear a "rumor" by sitting in front of a sewer grate with no-one around for 24 hours.

Best piece of insightful Information I've read....kinda fishy to since this is what I was thinking during my play...didnt know others thought similar

But it (Moonmover's take on the events) wouldn't quite be a dream would it? The events would have actually happened, but there's a different explanation for them. Is it possible for a Daedric Prince to split into two Princes? 1+1=1? That is, it is less that a new prince is being made than it is one prince separating into two parts of himself.

Reminds me of the creation myth, with Anu dividing himself into Anu and Padomay... Yet the universe is still Anu. (just re-read that great CHIM thread today.)

Well, okay, it was a general dismissal of the theories that cheapen the lore SI added. My specific thought with that is that if the Monomyth (I believe) is to be trusted, then there is such a universe and Mundus that existed before Sheogorath existed. So the thought that Jyggy was forced to mantle Sheogorath makes sense and when the shackles are let loose, Sheo is no longer walking like Sheo. Fortunately, a mortal is already walking like Sheogorath so Sheo doesn't get destroyed. You follow?

And not to derail the thread (I just want a source) where did you get that last bit? Anu and Padomay are the universal forces that collide to form Aurbis, the universe. If you're referring to Subcreation Zero, then that's not Anu. That's something I like to borrow from Hinduism and call Brahman.

I think the confusion comes from different usages of the word "Anu." One pair is Anu and Padomay, the two halves of the unnamed beginning. Another such pair is Anuiel and Sithis, who were the division of Anu, who was the original whole. I'm pretty sure those two pairs are simply different ways of describing the same thing, rather than different subgradiants. So there's only one Anu; the question is whether that term should be applied to the original whole, or half of an unnamed whole.

Oh, I probably got the names mixed up. It was Anu splitting to Anuiel and Sithis. http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=864305&st=20&p=12594154&hl=l&#entry12594154 (as I mentioned, I had reviewed the CHIM thread yesterday).

I also think the most logical thing is that CoC went insane in some sort of manner and would be later suprised by Sheogorath and then he may be one of the new dukes of Mania or Dementia... or be some kind of general... who would stay forever on the Isles (also explaining how he would dissapear from Cyrodiil like the Nerevarine)..

I thought it was always a bit strange that the CoC was the only one who stayed sane in the Isles....

Most logical, and also most boring.... -_-

Rather than making a new thread, I figured i'd post this here since it is related to the topic of this one.

I was reading through the story of Shivering Isles on TIL to refresh my memory on some things, when I came across this interesting remark:



Now, I know that the Manics have a different version of this tale. But the side told by Arctus seems awfully similar to that famous recurring act in Tamrielic history we call the Enantiomorph, in which Akatosh rips out Lorkhan's heart, Pelinal (who, if I remember correctly, is described as both characters, Rebel and King, in one) rips out his own heart, and Tiber Septim rips out Zurin Arctus's heart.

Now, my question is this: Does the Demented side of Arden-Sul's story have anything to do with the Enantiomorph, or is it simply a coincedence (or perhaps similar imagery with a different event)?

More importantly, am I even making any sense or do I have the events I referenced jumbled up and confused in some way?

Thought Mania and Dementia were references to the Enantiomorph. Both sides tell of Arden-Sul getting his heart ripped out or mauled or whatever happens.

Dementia says he ripped out his heart, and Mania says his heart exploded after taking too much Greenmote. I cited the Dementia one simply because it had him ripping his heart out much like Pelinal did to himself (and Akatosh to Lorkhan, etc.). Though you're probably right either way.

Jyggalag:Lorkhan :: Hermaeus Mora:Akatosh


If someone else rules it, they can call it something else.


The portal you went through isn't the only one. Sheogorath invites crazy people, and has defenses to try to keep out the sane (or drive them crazy after they get there.)


Jygallag has very important business. You are Sheogorath. Also, Lorkhan is coming back thanks to you.


Yes.


Don't know. Try killing him?


Jygallag transformed because Lorkhan's heart was removed.


Lorkhan has his heart; Jyggalag has his mind. Their move.

What? How do you figure that? I see no correlation between Hermaeus Mora and the other 3 you mentioned.



The whole "Lorkhan coming back" thing was nothing but pure speculation last I checked. I personally don't see any evidence for it beyond the fact that his Heart was freed from the enchantments binding it, and I think that's pretty flimsy evidence to go on. But that's just my personal opinion.

I gotta say no go, bro. I recall expressing disdain about this idea in the past.

If you're going to make any sort of correlation like this it should be the obvious one: Jyg:Aka :: Sheog:Lorkhan.

I honestly don't see how any other correlation could hold water.



A guess with a good basis. A basic understanding of creation myths of TES can show you this. See Lorkhan coming back as the world ending. For one to happen, the other has to.

Why would Lorkhan want the world to end? The world was his idea in the first place!

I understand WHY people would think Lorkhan is coming back; I just don't think there's much basis for it. We're not even sure if Lorkhan even HAS his heart back. Nobody knows where the hell it went after the Nerevarine hit it with the Tools. It could have relocated itself to Thras for all we know.

I like the idea of OCD being a form of Order, and thus perhaps Jyg was always meant to also embody insanity... neat idea, that. I don't think it's lore though, sadly.

I'm pretty sure, despite game mechanics making it hard to state as obvious, that Shivering Isles showed us the divination of a mortal, which is not unheard of by any means in TES lore. The CoC becomes a Daedric Lord, as Jyg becomes himself again, but your actions prevent Sheo from being completely obliterated at the same time. Basically a new Daedric Lord is created, from the aspect of a previous one... exciting stuff.

Where will it go? I imagine Jyg will create a new realm, and in the next game, if it takes place in later years, we will have quests/shrines/whatever for Jyg and Sheo both, and we call all do the Sheo quest knowing it is the character we played in Oblivion and get a kick out of it. There might also be some mentioned animosity between Sheo and Jyg, which could be a nice little side-story.

I didn't say he has it back. Just my idea. For the world to end, its Heart must be removed, correct?

edit: Plus, http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/wulfharthsongs.shtml

I am constantly pondering what's really going in with Shor! I just can't see that he wants the world to end, but his coming signifies it will end. The heart has disappeared from red mountain, so that's not a good sign of things to come.

Grrr, we need some human perspective on this, not those damn dirty elves!

To quote The Plan to Defeat Dagoth Ur:



I don't think the Heart was removed from the world. The Plan says that the Nerevarine's actions destroyed Kagrenac's enchantments binding the Heart, yes, but I don't think those enchantments bound the Heart to the world since the Heart was there long before Kagrenac showed up. The more likely possibility, in my opinion, is that the enchantments were used to bind the Heart to Numidium (in Kagrenac's and the Dwemers' case) and Anumidium (in Dagoth Ur's case). The Nerevarine's purpose was to remove the link between the Heart, the Tribunal, and Dagoth Ur. http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/nu-hatta_nu-mantia.shtml#3, yes, but that still doesn't mean the Heart was removed from the world, let alone returned to Lorkhan. As I said earlier, it could have relocated itself to somewhere else on Nirn for all we know.

The story about Arden-Sul suggests that it's all happened before. It suggests that some one came, did everything the player would do and mantle Sheogorath. It seems to imply that Jyg will never actually be set free. So Sheogorath, that is now played by you, is going to turn into Jygallag again.

Dyus highlights the difference between Sheogorath and Jygallag. Where Jygallag is about unity and predictability, Sheogorath deals with personal choice. Personal choice is something that simply didn't exist until Mundus came about. It's the result of an attempt at creating something that would be always new, eg. unpredictable. With the creation of Mundus, allot of the Daedra were also changed as the fundamental principles of the Aurbis where turned upside down.

Both points imply that Jygallag can no longer exist without turning into Sheogorath. Due to Mundus, complete predictability no longer exists and because of that, Jyg can never excist again. The ending speech of Jyg, giving plot exposition however trashes everything the story implied. He's set free al right, but he exists in a world that is no longer predictable. Doesn't leave much for the embodiment of predictability.

So all in all I'd be inclined to disbelieve Jyg. Find some one else to mantle Sheogorath and get the hell out of there.

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I'll clarify as needed.