Jyggalag Origin Conflicts

Post » Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:24 pm

When I meant Sheogorath is never coming back I mean the actual Daedric Prince, the other personality of Jyggalag. As in, if Sheogorath never takes over Jyggalag again. But it also seems unusual that Jyggalag can simply leave the Realm, that he essentially created, and what, make his own? Or does he already have one, it's not exactly clear. But it has been a while, I should finish the quest again and listen to what he said. Even if it were true, I would think that the Shivering Isle would be in trouble when the new Sheogorath dies. There are a few other things, but I believe this was already discussed before, I just have to find the thread again.


Jyggalag never had his own realm till he was 'transformed' (I use that would in a general sense), into Sheogorath. He had a sphere of influence, but not a realm. He however attacked/took over realms, apparently in a similar fashion to what we see happening to the Shivering Isles (the land becomming 'ordered').
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Laura Shipley
 
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Post » Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:13 pm

Okay but that's not in any of the games though.


Neither is a transformation of a Daedra into an Aedra.
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W E I R D
 
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Post » Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:18 am

According to http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/varietiesoffaith.shtml Sheogorath is thought to be of Aldmeri origin. He is "born" when Lorkhan's divine spark is removed, and is also refered to as the "Sithis-Shaped Hole" of the world.

So, how might Sheogorath being the product of the removal of Lorkhan's divine spark, and also the Sithis-Shaped Hole, correspond to his identification with Jyggalag? (I have some loose ideas about answering this, but I don't have a complete "answer".)

Also, the connection between Sheogorath and Lorkhan suggests that recent occurences in the Shivering Isles may not be unrelated to the Oblivion crisis.
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Flutterby
 
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Post » Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:44 am

When I meant Sheogorath is never coming back I mean the actual Daedric Prince, the other personality of Jyggalag. As in, if Sheogorath never takes over Jyggalag again. But it also seems unusual that Jyggalag can simply leave the Realm, that he essentially created, and what, make his own? Or does he already have one, it's not exactly clear. But it has been a while, I should finish the quest again and listen to what he said. Even if it were true, I would think that the Shivering Isle would be in trouble when the new Sheogorath dies. There are a few other things, but I believe this was already discussed before, I just have to find the thread again.



Maybe Jyggy can just be room mates with Peryite? Those two would get along famously.
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Dj Matty P
 
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Post » Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:06 am

Now we are talking about personal choice anyway: again, pardon us for being so bold, but stories of the Aldmeri creation mythos say that the Lord Sheogorath was 'born' when Lorkhan's divine spark was removed and the free Mundus, the mortal world, first came into existence. Might this relate to the curse that Jyggalag's jealous unbrothers placed on him?

Dyus:
The Aldmer really think that? How amusing.

Haskill:
Ah, the elves. That most self-centered of mortal races. It is inconceivable that anything could occur that has nothing at all to do with them. Do you really think that Oblivion exists solely as a shadow of Mundus? That everything that happens here is connected in some way with your pitifully limited world? I can tell you, speaking only for myself, of course, that sometimes entire minutes pass without me thinking of mortal affairs.


This answer seems to imply that "the daedra are vastly more complex and ineffable than your laughably simplistic myths and legends inform you. Do not try to find patterns understandable to the mortal mind." I read this as a rather direct statement from the SI on authors on what led them to write something incompatible with prior knowledge on Sheogorath. What, with respect, the authors don't get, is that jettisoning a flawed mortal understanding of the history of the gods and telling us "it's too awesome and mysterious to comprehend" instead of providing another subjective, interesting source, is not good storytelling, not good characterization, and not good lore. It would be like MK coming into the 'World Eating 101' thread, telling us the Monomyth and Anuad were wrong, posting nonsense in Esperanto and then leaving.

There is the mysterious, and there is the cop-out mystery. I admit I haven't played or paid much attention to SI, but I don't think I missed anything huge.
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Shae Munro
 
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Post » Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:02 am

Well there is the last line that turns everything on it's head, but it's a non answer in anyway you look at it. Either it is a cheap excuse that isn't worth reading, or as the last line suggest everything does revolve around Mundus and there is no explanation for Jyg.
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Dawn Farrell
 
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Post » Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:09 am

Something that really confuses me about Jyggalag/Sheogorath is the fact that at the end of SI, the CoC supposedly BECOMES Sheogorath, or at least an avatar or some other form of his being(as I don't really feel like a real daedric prince much with the rewards at the end of SI). What I don't understand, is at the end, you 'release' Jyggalag from his curse of the Greymarch, and he seemingly disappears while you become the next Sheogorath.

This may just be my own interpretation, but when you 'release' him from the curse the other daedric princes put on him, wouldn't that destroy the SI and the part of him that IS Sheogorath? From what I've gathered, Sheogorath and Jyggalag are one in the same. Also, its my understanding daedric princes can't 'die' in the mortal sense, so how in the hell can Sheogorath and Jyggalag exist at the same time? It just seems like they play upon the idea that they are the same person in lore and in the SI expansion, yet at the end, they seem to become two separate entities, since Jyggalag can't just simply 'die' while you're supposedly running around as the next Sheogorath.

P.S. I'm with pieterjan on the Sheogorath playing a prank on the CoC theory lol. It fits his sphere too perfectly :P
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Jose ordaz
 
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Post » Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:32 pm

Something that really confuses me about Jyggalag/Sheogorath is the fact that at the end of SI, the CoC supposedly BECOMES Sheogorath, or at least an avatar or some other form of his being(as I don't really feel like a real daedric prince much with the rewards at the end of SI). What I don't understand, is at the end, you 'release' Jyggalag from his curse of the Greymarch, and he seemingly disappears while you become the next Sheogorath.

This may just be my own interpretation, but when you 'release' him from the curse the other daedric princes put on him, wouldn't that destroy the SI and the part of him that IS Sheogorath? From what I've gathered, Sheogorath and Jyggalag are one in the same. Also, its my understanding daedric princes can't 'die' in the mortal sense, so how in the hell can Sheogorath and Jyggalag exist at the same time? It just seems like they play upon the idea that they are the same person in lore and in the SI expansion, yet at the end, they seem to become two separate entities, since Jyggalag can't just simply 'die' while you're supposedly running around as the next Sheogorath.

P.S. I'm with pieterjan on the Sheogorath playing a prank on the CoC theory lol. It fits his sphere too perfectly :P


If it's not a prank then the elaborate ecosystem of the SI combined with "madness as source of power" might come into play, but that has only been hinted ever so slightly...
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Makenna Nomad
 
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Post » Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:42 am

Something that really confuses me about Jyggalag/Sheogorath is the fact that at the end of SI, the CoC supposedly BECOMES Sheogorath, or at least an avatar or some other form of his being(as I don't really feel like a real daedric prince much with the rewards at the end of SI). What I don't understand, is at the end, you 'release' Jyggalag from his curse of the Greymarch, and he seemingly disappears while you become the next Sheogorath.

This may just be my own interpretation, but when you 'release' him from the curse the other daedric princes put on him, wouldn't that destroy the SI and the part of him that IS Sheogorath? From what I've gathered, Sheogorath and Jyggalag are one in the same. Also, its my understanding daedric princes can't 'die' in the mortal sense, so how in the hell can Sheogorath and Jyggalag exist at the same time? It just seems like they play upon the idea that they are the same person in lore and in the SI expansion, yet at the end, they seem to become two separate entities, since Jyggalag can't just simply 'die' while you're supposedly running around as the next Sheogorath.

P.S. I'm with pieterjan on the Sheogorath playing a prank on the CoC theory lol. It fits his sphere too perfectly :P



The Shivering Isles requires Lord Sheogorath to be the Shivering Isles, not Jyggalag. Since there is a new Lord Sheogorath, the Plane of Madness can continue to exist. You're right. Up to a point they WERE two sides of the same coin, but something unprecedented has happened and for the very first time they both exist embodied in separate entities. The madness part of him was "exorcized" into the CoC, leaving only Jyggalag.

In my opinion this may have even weakened Jyg and he may not actually be a Daedric Prince any more. But that's just a hypothesis. He doesn't appear to have a realm of his own, but this might be remedied. It seems impossible for me to comprehend that there could be seventeen Daedric Princes, as that would throw off the whole spaces between the spokes of the wheel thing. (Eight Divines, Sixteen Princes...but Talos already messed up that whole harmony, it seems.)
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Lil'.KiiDD
 
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