I have seen people say that Jyggalag's origin as truly revealed in Shivering Isles conflicts with what was generally considered in the Lore forum his origin. I was wondering, what was his origin according to the Lore forum before Shivering Isles (+ evidence) as compared to the revelation of his origin according to Shivering Isles

Before Shivering Isles Jyggalag was nothing more than the name of somebody who might not even have existed. There was no lore on him before SI...

I have heard people say that before SI he was supposed to be Lokhan in some way.

He actually seems to be against Shor, and more in line with Anu.

I am unsure what you mean. Could you please explain?

Anu is statis. Jyggy is about complete order. Shor (Lorkhan) is more Padmay oriented, and tricked the aedea to make mundus, a world (or experiment) of unpredictability, or to teach the mortals how to not achive CHIM or whatever. Basically, I\'d say Shor (Lorkhan) is not someone who would try to cause stasis and complete order. But I can\'t really focus my thoughts thoroughly, since I am quite tired.

read http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/monomyth.shtml if you want to know what Shor was more or less about, along with Anu. The other lore masters here can give a better explanation.

Also, Jyggy's curse seemed to have came from the lose of Shor's divine spark, thus it was either a curse upon Jyggy through Shor losing his heart, or the daedra actually cursed him to be Sheogorath when that event happened. It's still a mystery for me, and something I am still trying to make sense, but Shor would not be trying to create something of order that we know of Jyggy.

A run down of Jygalag's creation:

Lorkhan proposes to the et'ada the concept Mundus; plans are 'drawn up' by Magnus.

Mundus is created, with 8 main heavenly bodies (excluding Magnus, as it's just a hole) plus Nirn.


At the same time, the spirits-who-didn't-make-mundus-or-weren't-otherwise-engaged make a mirrored image of Mundus known as Oblivion (but instead make their plane(t)s within themselves).

16 main princes/planes, but also an extra prince whom exists freely (a balancing Prince to Lorkhan/Nirn), Jyggalag. Jyggy is practically the complete opposite of Lorkhan, and as Lorkhan created/proposed Mundus, Jyggalag wants to seemingly 'destroy' Oblivion.


Now, over on the Mundus side of things, the Aedra (those who gave a piece of themselves to create Mundus), find out Lorkhan's treachery, and pretty much screw him over. They rip out his heart, and bury it. This also lets Akatosh exist in Mundus (as neither Akatosh nor Lorkhan can be concious while the other is, as they are really just the same two headed entity) and time begins.


On the Oblivion side, the Deadra do a kind of mirrored version of events, and turn Jyggalag inside out, into Sheogorath (because Jyggalag was going around destroying things).


Now, one can interpret these last two bits as causing each other, while at the same time being completly seperate. Each had to happen, at the exact moment the other did, to keep the universe in balance (the whole Duality comming through). It's much like what came first, the chicken or the egg, however pre-shivering isles it was assumed that Lorkhan's fate came first as his demise brought about the serpent, made of unstars, which has been known in the past to be Sheogorath.
There's no conflict, SI just brought us a greater depth of knowledge about Jyggalag and Lorkhan.

Thanks TOYB, that's exactly what I wanted to convey

Is their a chance that Jyggalag will become an Aedra then?

Personally, I severely doubt it. Given that he's a Daedra, I don't see any public follower of the Aedra accepting him being one of them.

:shrug: I was thinking more along the lines of how Meridia and Malacath were Aedra before they became Daedra. Also considering the fact he's about stasis and not change which makes him more similar to the Aedra then his fellow Daedric Princes. Although if I go with the above statements where he's the opposite of Lorkhan yeah it wouldn't happen. Although I'm curious now since apparently the Aedra can jump ship to the other side can the Daedra as well?

Well, in the terms of Malacath, he was swallowed and came out a Daedra, so one of the stories go. I don't think a Daedra would personally let himself be called an Aedra, either. It is a major insult, even for Jyg. Aedra are simpy mortals with power/false-gods, if I remember correctly, according to the Daedric Princes, meanwhile they're the "true" gods.

I don't remember about Meridia, though. UESP doesn't say anything, either.

Aedra are the original spirits that gave themselves to the creation of Mundus. Daedra are those who did not. The cases of Malacath and Sheogorath are special daedric circumstances. But let me put it this way, both are not considered by the other princes to be daedric princes. They are, what the others to feel as, a mistake of some sort. With the case of Sheo, it seems to be a curse, a prince becoming warped. With Malacath, he was a hero god person of the altmer, Trimminac(sp?). He became the outcast daedra when he was swallowed by Beothia, and pooped out. Sheo even has described himself and Malacath to be the outcast princes.

Meridia did not give herself to creation, thus she is not an aedra, same with Malacath.

She's a wayward solar daughter cast from the heavens for consorting with illicit spectra. In another words she wasn't originally a Daedra Prince.

But since she stayed and pretty much made a world of herself, she's now a daedric prince. Daddy didn't like it when she was having wild raves in his basemant, while he and Shor were planning on how to create Mundus.

Well Arkay is an Aedra but he was originally a mortal raised to Godhood by Mara.



True just stating that she started off as something else.



Sill never got my question answered though. :read:

Lies from a previous age.

Compare the Story of http://www.imperial-library.info/dfbooks/b005_arkay.shtml with Tu'whacca. It's a parable about finding purpose in mortality.





Neither were the Daedra. To be exact, there were no Daedra before there were Aedra and no Aedra before Daedra. Before the creation of Mundus, there were other ways to group the et'Ada though. Usually between Anu (Solar) and Padomay (Lunar, Lorkhan).
It's commonly overlooked because the Aedra generally conform too the lighter side while the Daedra hold the darker side. There are exceptions though. It's not difficult to imagine Solar et'Ada that never participated in the creation of Mundus. Just as it's not difficult to imagine an Lunar et'Ada that did participate in creation, Lorkhan.

With the creation of Mundus allot of the Lunar et'Ada changed. Mehrunes used to be a Leaper-Demon, according to Faith in the Empire Sheogorath came into being (nevermind the crap from SI) and Hermaus Mora was born from ideas that were never used in creation. Seems to me this would also be the point where Meridia went from being a Solar et'Ada with a somewhat questionable moral to full blown Daedra.

So to answer your qeustion. It depends on how you define Aedra.

Okay but that's not in any of the games though.



Differences between cultures? Doesn't mean Arky the God is wrong though.



So I should ignore an expansion as complete BS based on a book in Morrowind that's likely BS and/or incomplete picture of the gods?




Actual no it doesn't my question was can a Daedra become an Aedra.

I think the best answer, imo, is that no self-respecting Daedra would allow himself to be considered an Aedra, as they, from reading, hold them as being false gods. (I know the actual story, but this is what the Daedric Princes like to say, regardless.) While the Daedra consider themselves real gods. And neither would the public who are Aedra-worshipping allow a Daedra in their religions.

Aedra and Daedra are gods in their own right and each is worship. They're not seperate, they're just considered "Good" and "Bad" by certain groups. So an Aedra is a Daedra, and vice versa, so to speak. Again, Daedra are too egotistical and self-righteous to, in their words, be called lower-class.

(I'm willing to bet Proweler will come in with excerpts from stuff and etc to either concur or dismiss my "rant", lol. Always has something good to say, and pretty spot-on.)

So would this all imply that the events of SI would necessitate some sort of mirror event on the Lorkhan/Akatosh side? Perhaps Martin took the place of Akatosh freeing Lorkhan?

That might be right if the events in SI actually are unprecedented, assuming that the player is told the truth and that this is the end of the Greymarch and Sheogorath is never coming back.

I find that unlikely, it's more probable that in the next game we'll see something happen with Lorkhan comming back. Bethesda have been building up to some sort of event involving Lorkhan for some time (excluding Lorkhan bleeding through the Enantiomorph through the ages). First the Mantella being destroyed/taken back, then the return of Lorkhan's heart to Nirn in spirit (being released from it's (meta)physical bindings placed upon it by the Dwemer), and then the Amulet of Kings being released (which was part of Shor in some ways), on top of that it seems almost certain the next TES game will be set in Skyrim, where connections to Shor/Lorkhan are strongest. Not to mention, what happens to Jyggalag is left to interpretation, so Bethesda will certainly build upon this (a good way to look at it would be something similar to the prophecy of the 'Blood Tide' at the end of Bloodmoon).



It's generally assumed that the PC mantels Sheogorath at the end of SI, becomming the Physical avatar of him. Sheogorath could never be gone, because the Plane of Sheogorath remained at the end of SI, and even reverted to 'normality' (the Fringe returning to madness). Even if the PC doesn't end up being the long-term avatar, Sheogorath's Sphere would eventually have a new one by other means.

i still prefer the theory that the entire SI was just a prank on the player by sheo and that hes laughing his ass off now that the player thinks he's a new god of sorts

When I meant Sheogorath is never coming back I mean the actual Daedric Prince, the other personality of Jyggalag. As in, if Sheogorath never takes over Jyggalag again. But it also seems unusual that Jyggalag can simply leave the Realm, that he essentially created, and what, make his own? Or does he already have one, it's not exactly clear. But it has been a while, I should finish the quest again and listen to what he said. Even if it were true, I would think that the Shivering Isle would be in trouble when the new Sheogorath dies. There are a few other things, but I believe this was already discussed before, I just have to find the thread again.