So, what do you guys feel is going to happen now that Jyggy has been set free? Do you feel he might be coming up as a major plot element (even if just in ingame rumor if not physically) in TES V? Daedric Ragnarok, perhaps?

What exactly do you think Jyggalag possesses in terms of raw arcane and technological resource to be able to have his army of constructs?

If he unleases the greymarch on Tamriel THAT would make for an intresting game... Albeit a bit of a repeat of TES IV in terms of plot...

I doubt he has immediate interest on Tamriel. All of Oblivion was setting up for this. Mehrunes Dagon just suffered a pretty horrible defeat and he's the guy with the big well-trained army of Daedra. Suddenly Sheo comes out and Jyggalag is set free. Now Jyggalag could theoretically steamroll the other realms of Oblivion with little to stand in his way.

Things we know about Jyggy:
-He was feared for both his knowledge and his military strength to the extent where all the other Daedric Princes worked together to trap him under the guise of Sheogorath.
-He has a seemingly unlimited ability to create Knights of Order, which are non-Daedric constructs with no intelligence, will, or independence.
-His goals seem to be to make everything uniform and complacent.

Not all of Oblivion, only Mehrune's plane. And Jygg probably doesn't want the Princes to gang up on him again, so I doubt he'll go on a rampage again -- if he is smart. Being the aedra-ish (static) being that he is, let's hope he just ignores the rest of the chaotic universe and justs sits in a corner in his drab, grey, boring little plane of Oblivion...

See, I'm not so certain the other Princes could even do anything to him at this point. He never did go on a rampage, to clarify that. The other Princes were /afraid/ of him and so launched a pre-emptive strike. They took him by surprise.

Now you have him free, the Princes' ability to fight back heavily diminished, and the probability that they weren't able to even impede Jyggalag's war machine.

I doubt we'll hear from him ever again. Jyggalag can't actually predict the mortal world, he failed to predict the success of the Champion of the Isles. If he can't predict one mortal, anything that interacts with mortals will be unpredictable as well.

The uncertainty of Mundus actually prevents Jyggalag, the concept of perfect prediction, from existing for anything but the short period until the world goes out of sync with his predictions.

If by Champion of the Isles you mean CoC/Current Sheogorath, he was counting on you succeeding. Heck, from what I understood Jyggalag pushed the suggestion through to his alter-ego and was gunning for it all the time.

Like the way Link can't survive in the Twilight without becoming a wolf in LOZ Twlight Princess (I just played the game for the first time and it was very good).

Trinimac couldn't survive in such a dishonorable world and thus "became" Malacath.



Ok...

Oblivion used to be a quite static place. Even though it "embodied change" it really didn't. Kind of like the way the a hypothetical political party may still cling to to the idea that they still stand for limited government even though they really don't anymore even if they once did.

When Shezarr created Mundus (which happens to be located in Oblivion) he added true change and disorder into the void. This re-invigorated the Daedra, who gained a new purpose in Mundus' creation, and gave them the power to "curse" Jyg. That's the way I see it anyway. Without Nirn to use as a playground, the Daedra had nothing to do. With nothing to do, things became static and thus gave an Anuic being (presumably from the Aether) the ability to gaina foothold in the void. His name was Jyggalag.

Jyg is now "free", but not really. My guess is he's heading back to Aetherius before the chaos that Mundus created releases his other again. Much how the Aedra and Magnus were made weak when Mundus was created, so too was their brother Jyggalag.

Then why did he attack you at the Palace? If he was counting on you to succeed why not just stand there and let you wail away on him?

Jyg didn't think the CoC could succeed, because he predicted he wouldn't, using those "super great formulas that never fail."

Maybe it was his nature to try and create perfect order, and you were in his way, so he had to kill you. But, they said that there is an minuscule chance you could win, and in which case you were that minuscule chance of defeating Jyggy, and defeat him the CoC did.

And his formulas are that great, but the problem is, is that it is just massive deduction and logic, and as such, they're good as ~99.9999999999%, there is still a chance of error.

so does that mkean in the next game no sheogorath shrine, and no wacky and fun items like the wabbajack or the staff of everscamp

I could be wrong, but didn't Dyus state that the Library of Jyggalag contain tomes that predicted the actions of every god and mortal in the past, present and future? I remember something like "the rise of Tiber Septim, the Numidium" etc.

Is it that Jyggalag cannot predict mortals in general, or is it that the existence of THAT mortal that keeps the Prince of Order at bay, and by "THAT" I mean the mortal contains the spark of PC-ness.

I recall that "an immortal hero, warrior, sorceror, and king variously known as Pelinal Whitestrake, Harrald Hairy Breeks, Ysmir, Hans the Fox, etc., wanders Tamriel, gathering armies, conquering lands, ruling, then abandoning his kingdoms to wander again." (http://www.imperial-library.info/history/merethic.shtml) Aren't those people just aspects of Lorkhan, individuals that house his Spirit/Ghost?

I even believe that Harrald Hairy Breeks is the same person as "King Harald" of Skyrim, mainly because King Harald died at the age of 108 (http://www.imperial-library.info/pge/skyrim.shtml) Tiber Septim, another aspect of Lorkhan as "Talos", also lived to be 108.

So long as Lorkhan's heartless spirit "impregnates" NIRN with free will, therefore giving birth to the concept of "madness" as Sheogorath, Jyggalag will always be unable to fulfill precised predictions....at least to that individual.

But why, then, did Dyus specifically refer to Tiber Septim as one of the beings predicted if the above is true? That, my friends, is because Talos cannot be predicted, and I only mentioned Tiber Septim.


___The Word Merchant of Julianos

Doubt it; the CoC is going to fill in, until Sheo fills into the CoC. At least, that is what I am thinking. At the end, you are Sheo in name, with some of his lesser powers, but the CoC will most likely morph into Sheo, and be the prince of madness once again

Considering that "killing" Jyg was what separated him from Sheogorath, I was under the pretty firm assertion that this trait was involved in Jyg's motives for attacking you. Remember that when daedra are "killed" their animus is torn from their corporeal shell. I imagine Jyg thought he could use this to his advantage. Perhaps, if the CoC could actually kill him (which would be a situation likely induced by Jyg challenging the CoC) Jyg could have himself "ripped" from his connection to Sheogorath. This would satisfy the thought of Jyg making extremely accurate predictions, but it also leaves for the possibility of him not being entirely sure. Not knowing 100% that this little scheme would work, Jygg may also be worried that the CoC could possibly stop his plans for the Greymarch, and thus he would feel inclined to fight him.

Either way, it gives Jyg an incentive to attack the PC player. If he just leaves him alone, the CoC may hinder his Greymarch, and even if in the fight he dies, perhaps it will help him out by separating him from Sheo.

I think it actually works out nicely that way... but yeah, I figure we won't hear from Jygg for a while. He's been gone a loong time, and he's got his own stuff to sort out in the meanwhile. Now whether he starts gaining new worshippers or not...that's a different story. I could see that, at least, being likely.

Can anyone refute the claim that since Jygallag's sphere is absent from Nirn, he is irrelevant and therefore powerless?

As always, I have http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=687421&hl= regarding that subject.


___TWM

I hope this doesn't erupt into an extensive debate between me and 8000 other posters, but I am personally still skeptical about whether or not Sheog and Jyg are now "separate." After all, Sheog himself expressed a bit of disbelief about the CoC truly become a Daedric Lord. Subsequent reading over relevant material concerning Arder-Sul and a post by TWM has convinced me that CoC is technically an incarnation of Arden-Sul.

To prevent myself from descending into pseudo-intellectual sillyness concerning this subject, I'll just sum up my idea by saying this:

1. recall that, with "mythic" Enantiomorphic entities, two separate "people" embody one individual: if CoC TRULY became the et'Ada Sheog, then he would be in the Sheog/Jyg entity, which is, considering relevant existing lore pieces, is currently illogical for more than one reason.

2. Concerning the whole Arder-Sul-removed-the-Dukes'-hearts-and-was-hella-important-yada-yada-yada nonsense, considering this information and simultaneously considering what you did in the SI quest, the Arder-Sul Incarnate idea holds more water

3. 1 and 2 being said, I don't think a lot will change with a mortal, psedo-mortal, or whatever the hell the CoC is now, under the mantle of Sheog; as TWM beat me to saying, Sheog embodies the idea of Uncertainty, the very idea the Mundus (and by correlation, its inhabitants) is based on. (That said, I used to have a warped idea that Sheog was somehow Shor...but that idea was effectively trashed)

To get back to the original post, I don't think we'll hear again about Jyggalag, any more than we'll see the player character fight Hircine a second time. He was the antagonist in one game and isn't needed for TES V.

I'm not sure we will see a dramatic appearance in TES V of another Daedroth in the vein of Mehrunes Dagon either. Bethesda would be repeating themselves.

From the rumors floating around this forum, I think it's more possible we'll revisit some of the provinces, such as Skyrim. I wouldn't mind seeing Hammerfall or Argonia, but that seems less likely somehow.

The problem with Black Marsh, is that you would have to completely cut off the middle section, or else anyone not agronian would die in a few minutes. So, I have a feeling that area will never really be used. And I think Jyggy may make a small appearance, but it is most likely a new cult forming or something.

Yes, it will.

You mean like Red Mountain? Oh...

A few minutes seems like a bit of an exaggeration, but even if that were true, you say that like they have that sort of commitment to being consistent with their own fiction.

As for Jyggalag, that entire thing seems like it was constructed so as not to have any real impact on future titles. We'll probably get a small acknowledgement but otherwise things will be back to normal.

Including Scottish Sheggy, if we're lucky.

Sheggy [censored] me a bit, to be honest.

Although it's not from a community source, I'm going to quote the almost perenially excellent Eurogamer's http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=74995:

But anyway, there's a rather more significant problem trotting along behind all this madness stuff, one that does degrade the entire experience. It's this: if you're going to use madness as your core fictional motif, then it suggests you're going to pull out the big guns in terms of story-telling. You know the stuff - paranoia, hallucination, betrayal, trickery, illusion, misdirection, and outright weirdness. A realm of pure madness shouldn't be, well, a teeny bit dull. And that's the problem: The Shivering Isles is mildly eccentric and quite pretty, but it's definitely not ecstatically, brain-boiling insane. As such it's a wasted opportunity. All the characters you meet are supposed to be loonies, but instead they generally just say something a bit odd when you meet them. They have over-the-top character traits, but isn't that a bit like all videogame characters, ever? Instead of making us want to take a step back with this screaming lunacy, or putting a chill in our bones with their grotesque fantasies, they're just a mildly weird. One guy is interested in meat (who isn't?!), another is a bit patronising. One person believes she's going to die, another is worried about diseases. One guy is hungry. Are mad people just hungry? It would explain a lot. One guy - get this - wants a house. The crazy fool!

All this might be excusable with a grand turn from the prince himself, but he's just vaguely amusing. It's a childish portrait of a lunatic. He's like the evil madman might be in a children's TV show - all camp and without substance. He never really seems threatening, in the way that the truly disturbed do. It's all an act, and thank goodness he's got quests to dispense so you can get back into that exquisite world...

Just like Public School!

Back on topic: A Greymarch in Tamriel would be quite interesting. Especially in a province like SUMMERSET ISLE

Heh, people are too easily amused by cheese.