Raiders attacked me on sight in FO3 and they attack me here as well. Nothing seems to change with or without karma.

It all comes down to Beth story writing. Everything seems to be fetch and carry quests....

I guess the only place that karma could play a role is if the final cut scenes reflect the end game world that we have left behind.

But Beth have distanced themselves from that type of story telling as well.

I can try to explain my view. If I roleplay a saint or an evil character I want to be sure that I do a good or a bad choice and that I will get an approriate result in the end. It could work without karma of course, but it`s a lot of work for devs ( to create a consequence for every your decision). .Karma was a kind of consequence itself. You got at least some kind of reaction from the world.

Well said. My belief is that there is good and bad and "morally grey" is just confusion of the masses. Explaining this to the masses unfortunately is like trying to convince a feral ghoul to be civilized. Not gonna happen. Truth is in the Bible just in case anybody here was wondering. Jesus Christ is Lord now and forever. This is Truth. You being blinded to God's love doesn't make it not so. Just as you cannot see the sun at night doesn't mean the sun doesn't exist. And before someone chimes in and says "Stop cramming your belief's down our throat" let's remember a lesson from Fallout. Being a hateful bigot is like humanity regressing into Super Mutants! This is a forum and thank God I am entitled to my belief and opinion as you are to yours.

I've gotta say, I'm actually really surprised that there are this many people who are glad that they got rid of it. Like I said before, I can go either way on it so I voted 'don't care'.

Exactly. I don't want a game to decide for me what is right or wrong. I'm strongly of the opinion that the Institute is the evil faction in Fallout 4, but other people see it differently, which is fine. There's a good argument on both sides of the debate, and the fact that there is no clear cut answer to this question makes it a lot better. If there was Karma, we could point at it and say "See, when you destroy the Institute you gain/lose x amount of Karma, so obviously _________ing them was the right choice."

I don't want that to be decided for me.

In Fallout 3 you could activate Project Purity and gain a ton of Karma. Or you could put the modified FEV in it and lose a ton of Karma. Personally, I happen to agree with this. However, that doesn't mean that there isn't at least some kind of 'greater good' argument to be made for adding the modified FEV. There are plenty of arguments to be made here. But the game made it clear that Project Purity=Good and Modified FEV=Bad. It was decided for us ahead of time that one of these was the good choice and the other was the evil choice. That takes a huge element of role playing out of the game for me.

Many people like to think that there is some universally objective sense of morality, but I've never been convinced that there is. I think in some cases there can much more of a clear cut right or wrong answer, but in most cases there's a lot more of a grey area than anything else. My sense of morality may not line up with another persons. Abortion is a good example of this. Two people can be on opposite sides of the debate, and both will be absolutely convinced that they're right and that they're taking the moral high ground. Is one of them definitely right? Well, in my opinion, yes. One of them is absolutely right. But other people may think that the other is the one who is absolutely right. Morality is a very subjective issue, despite so many people holding a view that there really is some objective sense of morality.

What the Karma system adds to the game is basically an objective sense of morality. Doing x is absolutely the -good- thing to do because it awarded positive Karma. Doing y is absolutely the -evil- thing to do because it awarded negative Karma. It's hand holding. It's a reassurance that you're doing the good thing, or reassurance that you're doing the evil thing if you're playing an evil character. I don't need the game to tell me if what I've done is good or bad. I should be able to answer that question myself based on the choices I've made and why I made them.

As a religious man myself, don't post stuff like that here please. This isn't the place for it.

Agreed.

As many have said the removal of the Karma system isn't responsible for the state of the dialogue.

I don't miss the karma system, but they've basically implemented something like it with the companions. I don't like them nagging me about my choices either.

I don't know if this is related, but the karma system is gone and so is slavery, the best way to express evil in both FO3 and NV. There isn't anything to replace that as all the factions are fairly gray and there aren't really any quests that let you make decisions that are clearly evil v clearly good. I miss having some of that good/evil/neutral thing that was so omnipresent in FO3 gameplay.

Exactly my thoughts, I want so desperately to be a twisted sick, evil character. But I can't.

Too many dictators in this world. Your opinion that this is not the place is well, just that. Thank God for liberty and men and women through the ages who have fought for freedom.

This is a privately owned forum for discussing Fallout and you preaching about religion is derailing the thread. There is no opinion in this case, it is a fact that this isn't the place for preaching about your religion. The mods can block this thread because of it and they have every right to do so.

Wow look at that train wreck. You seem to be the only one derailed and it's interesting how you are scared by other people's belief's. What are you running from?

Karma was stupid. Karma made little sense. Karma did almost nothing for the game and Karma was easily breakable. It was not a good system at all in any of the games. Good/Evil systems in game were fun for awhile but now they seems completely stupid and tact on, just another crappy thing in gaming that needs to be replaced by something better.

Seriously, he's giving you a friendly heads up. If you want the thread to stay open, so we can continue to have this very interesting discussion, you'll want to stay on topic. This is a strictly moderated forum with a very low tolerance for off topic discussion.

I'm not scared of your beliefs (As I said, I'm religious), I'm trying to warn you dude.

This^

Agreed

Buddy, I'm not sure if the point is getting across to you, but its against the rules to discuss politics and religion on these forums. Simple as that.

Again, even if one truly does care about there being a good and a bad, you don't need the game to label it for you through some pointless arbitrary number that has absolutely no effect on the game. If you think doing such and such is good with the Minutemen, then its good for you an your character. You don't need +100 karma to make it official. Karma has always been a pointless little system, and its removal hasn't taken away from the dialogue of Fallout 4. Well, karma has nothing to do with it at least.

Karma system really made no sense and svcked ballz. Good riddance really.

Okay, i'm not arguing for the karma system. I don't really miss it. Although like I said earlier I do kind of miss the good/bad/neutral vibe you could get going in FO3 and I'm wondering if that was a consequence of having the karma system or it existed because FO3 is all about good v bad.

The karma numbers themselves in FO3 do actually affect gameplay. If you have an evil enough karma you have an easier time getting into Paradise Falls the first time. If you are on the evil side the Rangers jump you and if you play a good character Talon Company comes after you instead. There is a lot of that in FO3. Side quests offer you good/neutral/bad karma solutions. I miss those choices between good/evil/neutral and if the only way i could get those from Beth is to have the karma system I'd happily take it back and complain when it doesn't work right.

The biggest weakness it suffered from in FO3 is that we could game it. To get my karma low enough to hire Jericho or Clover I'd hack an owned terminal over and over again until it was low enough. Blow up Megaton or kill everyone in TT so you took a major hit but don't want to be evil? Easily fixed because all you had to do was spam beggars with purified water and donate to churches. So you could do the most evil thing in the game and a couple of hours later be so good that PF doesn't want to have anything to do with you.

This comment has absolutely no place in this thread. This is not an opinion, it is part of the forum rules. You are wandering off-topic. You don't have freedom of speech here, as this is a privately owned forum. I suggest reviewing the forum rules.

The thing is hearing three dogs talk like you're god/satan incarnate, weak mercs/rangers randomly attacking you and getting pathetic scraps from megaton settlers or paradise falls slavers aren't enough to say the systems were worth it or did anything. They were waves of the hand, nothing but saying "hey look what you did mattered but not really" and this has been in every game. Each game has suffered from the karma systems actually not doing a damn thing, even New Vegas's was just a different slider. That's all.

Hell, the only game I'd say that got a karma system right was tactics but that was a straight forward game and the karma system was renamed reputation which actually makes way more sense seeing as "good and evil" are highly subjective and would be different for factions who have different moral goals and viewpoints. For instance to a group like the Minutemen all a raider is is a junkie who is attacking people just to afford the next fix or get the next bottle of booze yet in Fallout 4 we're constantly seeing raiders join up to protect their families or to survive. How is the raider any different from the Minutemen? All they're doing is protecting their loved ones and trying to survive.

This is why morality systems are stupid, they act as if there is a universal right or wrong using standards we hold up and we're suppose to look at it like the world is like our's when it comes to morality but that's not the case. The world of Fallout is different.

Agree. The problem is not in karma itself, karma was a simple way to warn you about possible consequences ( it was not always clear what way can lead to the best or the worst result). I find it very dissapointing when you try to do good or bad choices, but then you get the same grey result in the end.

Because that's how the world is. It's actually one grey mess. Morality is a concept, not an absolute or a law of the world, it's nothing more then a concept created by people. Do you want to know how to play a bad character? Do things you consider are bad. You don't need a half-ass system to tell you what you're doing is good or bad because that's not how the world works and as a gameplay mechanic is a really poor one.

There is no evidence of it, nobody really knows it for sure to claim such things, it`s just your personal view, you do not know it, you just believe in it. And the world is not a grey mess, some things are clearly good, some things are cleary bad and some things are grey.

Yes because cultural norms establish what is good, bad and grey. It's all stuff made by people to say what is good, bad and grey. It's conceptual. Numerous societies throughout history had a different vision of what is good, bad or grey. Take for instance the Aztecs, to us their ritualistic sacrifices are bad because that is established by our society and culture but for the Aztecs it was a way to appease the gods. Stealing, to some societies the idea of stealing was just another form of sharing or borrowing, they would gladly share their belongings with their fellow people.

It's all a matter of perspective and cultural norms.

Interesting. By definition all of you have violated the forum rules as well. I guess all the relative talk of grey area morality is considered "non-religious" although is it not a set of ideological beliefs? You all passionately spoke of this earlier and even challenged people with your unfounded nonsense. Then when someone dare speak on an ideology that goes against yours, BAM! Let's stop it! Bigotry: "Intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself". What a brave new world you people are progressively creating. Sad thing is, regression is in the heart of mankind. History repeats itself daily and this forum only proves it. Nothing new under the sun and He still remains Alpha and Omega!

This frightened me more than all the Super Mutant's and Raider's speeches combined.