Keening reforged

Post » Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:30 am

Into what? Sunder is a hammer because the heart has to be toned properly before it can be broken apart by Keening. Changing Sunder into something else would basically make it into something else. Still, if you want a new Sunder, please start a new thread. Thanks.


Geez...

I was just curious, not really that interested anyways, just thought I'd help throw around some ideas... :grad:
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Mariana
 
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Post » Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:46 am

It's okay, Guitarjoe91. It's just that we (meaning Jac, Kiteflyer, and I) thought this would be a very simple little lore-friendly way to get Alaisiagae's beautiful weapons into the game and it turned into a huge debate on lore and statistics. The funny thing is, people started to tear it apart before they could possibly have even played it long enough to know what it was about. We were put on the defensive from the very first comment. I'm pretty sure Jac didn't mean to be curt; he was just trying to reiterate what Kiteflyer said about there being no new features until version 2.

As I've said before, Morrowind is a one-player fantasy game in which anyone can have virtually anything they can figure out how to do. It shouldn't be taken as sarcasm when someone says, 'Hey, you want that, go ahead and make it!' It should be taken as encouragement. The thing is, most modders have WIP threads which are the places to make suggestions. Release threads are the places to make comments on the actual gameplay. 'This script didn't work.' 'There's a typo here.' 'That dialog topic didn't get added' etc. Unfortunately, modders tend to fall into the trap of 'feature creep'. This is what happens when a whole slew of people start making requests and the modder attempts to accommodate everyone. The end result is usually a burnt out modder pleasing absolutely no one, not even the person he wrote the mod for in the first place, himself.

There's three golden rules to mods:
1) You want it, you make it.
2) You don't like it, don't play it.
3) If you make it and you like it, don't listen to anyone else.

Hmm, I may make that my new signature. :D
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Melanie
 
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Post » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:58 pm

the parts you are trying to nifskope together may not have had a complete skin partition to reference? swords and weapons in particular....a sketch might be helpful. perhaps a bit of blender is the way to go here.


Indeed, they'd need to be weighted to one of the wrist/hand bones... you'll need a SkinInstance, and it will quickly become painful. Blender is really the way to go here.

It's okay, Guitarjoe91. It's just that we (meaning Jac, Kiteflyer, and I) thought this would be a very simple little lore-friendly way to get Alaisiagae's beautiful weapons into the game and it turned into a huge debate on lore and statistics. The funny thing is, people started to tear it apart before they could possibly have even played it long enough to know what it was about. We were put on the defensive from the very first comment. I'm pretty sure Jac didn't mean to be curt; he was just trying to reiterate what Kiteflyer said about there being no new features until version 2.


Even though I'm extremely interested by this mod (and the alternative, [topic='1095055-choose-your-keening']Choose your Keening[/topic]), I've not said anything because it wasn't clear which way the discussion was heading. Ultimately, it's up to the modder what they do with the mod, including whether and what suggestions they take on it, and a lot of people seem to have jumped in and hijacked the discussion into some sort of "ZOMG I think it would be cool if you did this :drool: and it svcks if you don't :wacko: and you should totally :rock: " convention.

:facepalm: :glare: :slap:

There's three golden rules to mods:
1) You want it, you make it.
2) You don't like it, don't play it.
3) If you make it and you like it, don't listen to anyone else.

Hmm, I may make that my new signature. :D


Sound advice; I've added it to my collection.

We've got a lovely set of weapon meshes, some people who've turned them into a nice mod, and people are complaining. I feel like Charlton Heston's character at the end of Planet of the Apes...
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Kate Norris
 
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Post » Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:50 am

First of all, thanks to all involved for version 1 of this mod - excellent work all around.

Secondly, if we're throwing around ideas for version 2, I'd like to suggest that for the weapons that require two hands, that something be done to protect the other hand from Keening. As I understand it, if you're not using Wraithguard to hold Keening (and Sunder), these weapons overwhelm and kill you. Fair enough, but just having one hand protected seems a little bit off, to me.

Perhaps you need to get both versions of Wraithguard somehow, or a different gauntlet for the other hand? Or you could transform Wraithguard to an amulet as suggested earlier, and get full-body protection that way.

Anyhow, just a few thoughts for you all.
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Brιonα Renae
 
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Post » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:45 pm

Ok, time to clarify a few points. :)

Keening reforged v1.3 is finished except for fixing the very minor dialogue error. It will be the "purist friendly" version. There's nothing in the meshes or dialogue that stretches,let alone breaks, MW lore as it stands.

Keening Reforged v2.0 is a WIP. In addition to the weapons in v1.3 it will add a staff, a mace, a crossbow, and some sort of hand to hand weapon who's final form has yet to be decided. It will also include a "reforged" wraithguard amulet.


I'm still open to suggestions, but please don't take it as an offense if your idea doesn't get picked up and put in the mod. I am somewhat of a purist myself, so guns and self generating ammo are not on my list.
So far everything we've put into the mod can be explained by either RL physics or "magical" properties that are already a part of the game. The Keening crossbow is already stretching this to the edge, but I think I've worked out a plausible explanation.

I want this mod to appeal to everyone, but I can't please everyone. I have to draw the line somewhere.


I also want to give a very special thank you to Alaisiagae, who stepped up and volunteered to do the additional meshes. Without her, there would be no version 2! :)



KF


Edit: @ aeddan23. Wraithguard's magic works no matter where the physical piece is. The normal Wraithguard is a right gauntlet. Jury-rigged Wraithguard is an identical LEFT gauntlet that works just as well without being on the hand that holds Keening or Sunder. The amulet is only intended for use by mages and monk types who suffer a major penalty to their AC because of having to wear a piece of armor. That same character (monk) would also benefit from a hand to hand Keening because of not having training in regular weapon types. Hope that makes sense. :)
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e.Double
 
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Post » Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:09 am

You could call version 2 the "Profane Tools Reforged" since the whole kit (wraithguard, sunder, keening) are Kagrenac's Profane Tools.
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Travis
 
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Post » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:24 pm

True, but we don't have any new meshes for Sunder unless you're willing to make us some. :hehe:
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Robert Jr
 
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Post » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:16 pm

Sunder is the one piece I can't come up with a plausible excuse to reforge. For all intents and purposes Sunder is a "bell hammer". Changing Sunder's shape or weight would change it's ability to strike just the right tone on the heart. Keening is used to destroy the heart by breaking it up once the "tone" is being emitted correctly. Lore states (if memory serves) that Sunder is needed to achieve the right tonal quality in the heart, and Keening disrupts these tones, causing the heart to break up. Changing Keening makes sense because it really doesn't matter what form it's in, it still breaks up the heart. Changing Sunder would change the tone qualities, thus breaking the lore.

I could be convinced if someone could come up with a rock solid story to cover the change, but again, I have to draw the line somewhere. :)

I had no idea this would mushroom like it has. On the one hand, it's nice to have a mod out that everyone seems to enjoy. On the other hand I'm starting to feel like the poor guy from the cartoons who has a snowball chasing him down a hill, and the snowball keeps getting bigger and bigger..... :)


KF
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Mariaa EM.
 
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Post » Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:26 am

Huh? How'd that happen? Sorry for the DP
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Romy Welsch
 
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Post » Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:20 am

http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr50/Alaisiagae/Mod%20Screenshot%20MW/Misc/art_sunder_wham.jpg? Retextured Dwemer Warhammer. I also made one that just pumps up the size of sunder's shaft and head, and plops them on the warhammer grip. Kinda looked a bit lame, but it is more recognizably "Sunder" despite the lack of any real difference (other than length of shaft and size of the head) to the one-handed Sunder.
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Scared humanity
 
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Post » Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:39 am

Once again, beautiful work Alaisiagae! :)

The warhammer is beautiful, but it's still a blunt weapon. The game doesn't differentiate between warhammers (one or two handed), maces, staves, clubs, etc. as being different. They're all lumped together as blunt weapons even though they are used very differently. As I said in a previous post, changing Sunder is very problematic lore wise. The original idea was to let players have the choice to have Keening reforged so that those characters who don't have the shortblade skill wouldn't have to train it just to be able to use one of the (arguably) best weapons in the game. :) It would be relatively easy to add a Sunder warhammer, but then there would be requests to add reforged Sunders for all the different weapon types too. Sunder is a great weapon as it is. There is enough crossover in the blunt weapon category to keep most players happy with it as it is. :)


I truly do like the warhammer versionof Sunder you made. It looks fantastic! I just don't want to add it to this particular mod. :)


Now if you wanted to extend the handle on the #3 mace you made so that Jac can have his staff, that would be totally awesome! It's the last piece we need for this mod. :)


KF
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electro_fantics
 
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Post » Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:49 am

I understand what you mean about blunts being the same. The game does make distinctions (bluntoneclose, blunttwoclose, blunttwowide, if I recall correctly), info that is mainly used for animations and shadows, I think? I'm not 100% sure.

I bet I could make sunder as a battle axe, claymore, and dagger. Not sure if I can make sunder into a staff, though. =/ I'll see what I can come up with, though I've got a busy rest of the week (homework, assignments, summer class - 6 straight hours of Biology. :dead: ).
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Astargoth Rockin' Design
 
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Post » Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:33 am

No problem at all. :) Take however long you take. No rush.

I think you may have misunderstood. :) The staff I was asking about is a Keening replacement. If you can take http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr50/Alaisiagae/Mod%20Screenshot%20MW/Misc/art_keening_mace_2.jpg and extend the handle out like http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/fms/Image.php?id=81556, we'll have a perfect Keening staff. :)

And again, Thank you very much for the meshes and textures. They're all very, very nice. :)
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April D. F
 
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Post » Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:15 pm

No problem at all. :) Take however long you take. No rush.

I think you may have misunderstood. :) The staff I was asking about is a Keening replacement. If you can take http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr50/Alaisiagae/Mod%20Screenshot%20MW/Misc/art_keening_mace_2.jpg and extend the handle out like http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/fms/Image.php?id=81556, we'll have a perfect Keening staff. :)

And again, Thank you very much for the meshes and textures. They're all very, very nice. :)

Would you settle for http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr50/Alaisiagae/Mod%20Screenshot%20MW/Misc/art_keening_staff.jpg?

Also: http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr50/Alaisiagae/Mod%20Screenshot%20MW/Misc/art_keening_claymore.jpg, but no dice with the battle axe - I can't replace the blade texture like I could with the waraxe; the battle axe head and blade are all one mesh and one texture. :(

EDIT: Woops! Don't worry about the claymore crossguard, I'll fix that texture right now....

EDIT2: http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr50/Alaisiagae/Mod%20Screenshot%20MW/Misc/art_wraith_gouger.jpg I was thinking of. A punching blade anchored to something on the wrist (bracer, vambrace, etc). I can't really do it in Nifskope, but that's the basic premise I was thinking of. In real life: http://www.kingofswords.com/images/SpyWatcherFantasyArmSword.jpg...
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Anna S
 
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Post » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:58 pm

WOW! That staff is incredible! I love it! Definitely perfect for the Keening staff. :celebration:

The claymore looks very nice too. I'm not sure I want to add another longblade into the mix though. Having said that, I'd love to see it released as a dwemer claymore replacer. It looks awesome in its own right. :)

I was thinking of a brass knuckles type thing for the hand to hand weapon. I'll take a look around the web and see if I can find a RL thing to copy. :) I must say though, that arm sword looks wicked.
If we are changing Wraithguard to an amulet it won't look right to have Wraithguard on the player's arm too. So the hand to hand weapon should look like a regular weapon, but with Keening's texture.

I'll be back as soon as I find something that looks like what's in my head. :)



Edit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Boxer_of_quirinal_hands.jpg is a plain version of the weapon type I'm thinking of. The band across the the fingers is a good base to have spikes like the mace that Elaura liked so much. Basically it's a handle with a metal band over the fingers. The handle and band would be the normal dwemer metal texture and the spikes would be textured in the silver blade texture. This would fit lore very easily and look cool to boot. It would be the only weapon of its kind in MW. Talk about a unique artifact. :)
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Sherry Speakman
 
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Post » Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:04 am

That staff looks great, Alaisiagae. We'd just need that, the mace and the crossbow and bolts and we could release the next version.
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Wane Peters
 
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Post » Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:01 am

The crossbow is already released. :) It's on PES.

I'd also like to have the Wraithguard amulet before we start the new setup. If and when the hand to hand weapon (knuckle duster, cestus) becomes available it should be easy to add. :)

So really all we need to get started are the meshes for the mace, the staff, the bolt, and the amulet to get this puppy rollin'! :)


KF
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Sunny Under
 
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Post » Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:10 am

Yes, well, we don't have the crossbow yet. :P
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Big mike
 
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Post » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:55 am

...

EDIT2: http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr50/Alaisiagae/Mod%20Screenshot%20MW/Misc/art_wraith_gouger.jpg I was thinking of. A punching blade anchored to something on the wrist (bracer, vambrace, etc). I can't really do it in Nifskope, but that's the basic premise I was thinking of. In real life: http://www.kingofswords.com/images/SpyWatcherFantasyArmSword.jpg...


The punching blade would be sweet to use.
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lilmissparty
 
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Post » Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:00 am

Yes, well, we don't have the crossbow yet. :P




You mean http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=7903? :whistling:

Already got it. :)
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Marion Geneste
 
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Post » Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:30 am

Been really busy the last the few days. Are there any new weapons that need stats? I skimmed the thread and saw there was a movement for other things to be added that weren't as lore friendly. If I were you, I would create this as a different mod, so there is a clear difference and you don't have to keep explaining yourself. Maybe call it "Keening Abominations" or something.

But I digress..

I have the stats for the staff, the crossbow and bolt, longsword, mace, axe, and spear posted.

Did I miss anything?


EDIT:

I just noticed the new meshes. Loving the staff! (and I don't even use them) Btw, I know you said you didn't want to use the 2 hander sword KF, but just in case I'll post the stats for it. That one is super easy, so I might as well.


LONGSWORD: (2 hander)

Dwarven Claymore

Weight 27.0 Health 3,500 Chop 1?33 Slash 1?29 Thrust 1?20 Speed 1.25

- AS KEENING

Weight 30.0 Health 4333 Chop 3-34 Slash 3-30 Thrust 2-23 Speed 1.5

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Anthony Santillan
 
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Post » Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:48 am

Thanks Maholix. :)

As of now there is only one weapon left, the Cestus (knuckle duster). It's going to be a pain to come up with the numbers for this one. There's no similar weapon in the game. We don't have a mesh for it yet, so no rush to get the numbers. :)


KF
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michael flanigan
 
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Post » Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:56 am

Wow this looks great! Definitely adding this to my LP...whether I ever GET to this point in the main quest is another matter entirely, ha!
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Dragonz Dancer
 
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Post » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:41 pm

Hmm.. how to turn something like that into keening? Well.. I'll think on it.. The biggest problem that I see is that the only "weapon skill" for it would be hand to hand, so I have no idea how it would inflict damage. If knew how it was going to be implemented, then I could start trying to figure out numbers.
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Roberta Obrien
 
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Post » Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:24 pm

Don't worry about it for now. :) We don't even have a mesh at the moment. I've got to research how to implement it properly for our purposes. We're going to go ahead and start up version 2 as soon as we get the other meshes from Alaisiagae. We can add the cestus later. :)


KF
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Richard
 
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