Hmm, I've been looking at all these threads about a reforged Keening and it seems like a great idea but - my characters specialize in ranged weapons. Any chance of a Keening bow? Just checking, It sounds like a really cool idea with a very nice integration into the world space, so I thought I'd ask.

Sorry

I don't see how a Keening lonbow could work in game or in lore. Turning a bladed weapon into another type of bladed weapon works very well. I don't see how we could rationalize turning a bladed weapon into a bow.
There are also issues with being too far from the heart when you hit it (there is a distance check in the script) that would make it a bad idea.


KF

I wants to play too!
Here are the stats I'm using for my personally modified reforged Keenings. These are based off of a mishmash of stats between Dwemer and Daedric. I've also taken into account what an "average" artifact is like. I've also thrown in a healthy does of "because I can" into the mix.

Keening's ratio is 45, putting it behind Mehrunes Razor at 42.5/75 and the Fang of Wossname, at 75/150. So the modified Keenings should be pretty average. There are other things to consider, like enchantment. Sunder has a ratio of 105 and still has the awesome CE on it, so it's ok to give the modified versions a better ratio. But they probably shouldn't compete with Sunder in pure damage output, because seriously, Sunder implies that you're slicing and chopping your opponents to death with a freaking carpenter's hammer, and that's just awesome.

Also, Keening is slightly heavier and more durable than an average Dwarven Shortsword.



Reasoning: I did say that Keening should be "average". But looking at artifact spears, one is a reward for a Daedric quest. These tend to be crappy in terms of damage. The other one is a jinkblade. Looking at the Daedric Crescent for comparison, the enchantment on a jinkblade makes up for the lack of power. Because of this, I have elected to give the spear a ratio of 71.25, putting it at the level of a fairly meh longblade. Considering that the Spear of the Hunter equals the Daedric Crescent in actual damage output, this seems to be a good, "average" output. Also, I love spears and Bethesda hates them, so YMMV. Slightly heavier and more durable than a Dwarven Spear.



This form has a ratio of 82.5, which is more than the spear (as it should be, lacking the range advantage) but pretty average for an artifact longblade. It is one-handed, which helps, but remember that Hopesfire is, too, and you aren't forced to wear heavy armor when wielding that. Because there's no Dwarven Longsword, I looked at Keening vs Daedric shortblades, and its health is between that of a tanto and that of a shortsword. So I gave this blade health between that of a longsword and that of a katana. A Daedric Longsword weighs almost 2.5x as much as a shortsword, so I went ahead and gave it a weight just over 2.5x that of kening to balance it downwards a touch.



A Daedric War Axe is a slightly nerfed version of a Daedric Longsword. This ware axe has a ratio of 83.75, which edges over the sword because swords only think they're cool. It's slightly slower and more powerful to throw a bone to the first-strikers. I also gave it higher health than the longblade because Bethesda's sword/katana fanboyism needs to stop, and there's really no reason the axes are so far behind the swords in terms of durability.

As did I, but the reason I mentioned the ebony in mine instead of these two is because if you look carefully, you'll see keening has health which is slightly better than that of an ebony on the list. Whereas saying that it is between these two is in effect correct, keening actually seems to be closer to an ebony weapon that gets a push into a more deadly weapon because of it's enchantments.

If a percentile gap is observed between keening and the normal drawven short sword, and then applied to the other dwemer weapon types, a trend seems to appear which was also on the short blade listing. Namely, the drawven weapon tends to be a little less than an ebony when durability is considered, but when keening's increase in health is factored in, the durability always appears to rest a little above the ebony weapon.

In short, while it is between those two on the one list, the trend reflected appeared to be closer to the ebony blade overall.


Another trend I noticed was that dwemer weapons sit between silver and glass weapons on the charts, but when keening is applied it moves it down the list a little. I had a notion to adjust damages a bit differently, but decided on flat difference to balance it out.. I feared I might over power keening and I wanted it very clear I was not making a cheat adjustment.

I could think about applying a new formula to the damages so that it falls closer to the daedric blades, and if so may edit my previous post when I figure it out. Keening might, overall, belong closer to the daedric items rather than ebony seeing as it is deadly artifact. However this is matter of opinion, because Keening doesn't really reflect a daedric weapon very much. It's weight and model reflect a dwemer object, so the damage being comparable to a low end daedric blade in the short blade list might just be happenstance.

Even if the weapon damages should need a minor tweak, it is still much better than having the short sword stats for all weapons. After all, a long sword should never hit like a short sword, and even without adjustment these figures I gave could still work.

I see some others took a little more liberty in their figures than I did, my aim is to keep it as close to what keening may have been as a stock weapon for each type.

So far I like Maholix's numbers the best. They are true to the other dwemer weapons.

As far as I'm concerned, Keening's magical power far outweighs it's use as a weapon. It's biggest claim to fame is it's power to tap the heart. That's what makes it an artifact alongside Sunder.

I don't want the new Keenings to be any more powerful than their dwarven counterparts, except as much as Keening is more powerful than a normal dwarven shortsword.
The percentage plan used by Maholix makes the most sense to me.

That's not to say that you can't tweak them however you see fit. I just want to keep with the lore friendly base mod.



KF

Lore wise Keening could be reforged into a bow, but it would lose its ability to tap into the power of the heart. That and we'd need somebody to make us a bow mesh; nobody who worked on this mod is a mesh creator and this was only possible because Alaisiagae released the new meshes. The biggest problem I see is that I don't know if a script can determine if you hit an activator with a bow. What I did with this version is I tested to see which of the four versions the player was wielding and then checked to see if they hit the heart. The original script just checked to see if you hit the heart with the original Keening. If someone's willing to make us a longbow mesh, we'll certainly consider adding it in. Of course, Yagram could just break Keening's blade into arrow heads, but then again, he might not be able to make the arrow heads. Still, we'd need meshes for both the bow and the arrows if we did that.

you'd probably have to check whether it checks for being hit with a bow or "keening" arrow. in which case the bow might need a script to give i special arrows.

I also seem to remember a distance check to activate Dagoth Ur in that script. If you are farther away than that check wants, it could do funny things to the way the heart script works.



KF

The arrows would be given to the player when Keening was reforged into a bow and would only have a limited amount, like five or six. Considering that cast on strike for bows doesn't work because the bow itself doesn't actually do the striking, I'd probably have to use the arrows' id. But this is all speculation without a bow and arrow mesh.

BTW, the mod is now on PES - link in the first post. Also, the change log has been added.

DarkDiva:

Maholix made a very good point when he mentioned Yagrum really doesn't have the tools to remake the blade. Being of an open mind, however, I can see a possibility of using sound vibrations to break the blade and make it into arrowheads or some other throwing-type weapon. Using this process, there would ultimately be a limited number of projectiles which could be made with the pieces of the blade. This number would be lessened also because some of the pieces of the shattered blade wouldn't be suitable in size or shape.

As written in the mod, the enchantment is said to be in the blade, so in the case of arrows, only the shafts would be special in the sense that they must 'house' the heads and 'focus' the energy of the blade pieces. Right now, the game limitations would be whether the proper enchantments could be put on an arrow and whether or not it can be scripted to hurt the player or the heart as the original does.

As far as writing it, the weapon requirement would be problematic, since there are no Dwemer arrows, bolts, or other ranged weapons in the vanilla game. The only related Dwemer weapon is the crossbow, but right now I'm not seeing why a new bow would have to be made at all, nor why the arrows couldn't be made of any other weapons grade Dwemer metal.

I'm willing to entertain ideas as I like the idea of the blade being shattered, but I can certainly see how if the desire is to have a bow, this wouldn't fit the bill. The biggest problem would be in the fact once you are out of Keening arrows, there can be no more without adding them back through the console.

It would indeed check for the arrow Id not the bow id

There's still the problem of damaging the player if they're not wearing one of the versions of Wraithguard. that and what mesh would the arrows use? There aren't any Dwemer bolts or arrows in the game.

well the damaging the player is simple:

- keening as a bow - wraithguard checks for bow to be equipped
- bow adds 5-6 arrows ( manny mods add this - check neverwinter nights bow in drow mod list - does similar thing can only use the arrows it spawns)

Bots/arrows are easy - Add your own ( only need to re-texture an bolt or arrow with dwemer textures - pretty simple as the arrow/bolt meshes are simple)

If you can work all that out then its a go

I'm still not seeing any justification for remaking the bow. And, as mentioned previously, none of us were involved in the meshes/textures. We'd need a volunteer from the audience to do whatever is decided upon, whether a bow or just arrows. :unsure:

I don't mean to be a stick in the mud, but we need to remember, you still have to run up to the heart to hit it first with Sunder. Having a ranged version of Keening doesn't make sense. Any advantage range would give is gone.

Not to mention, without a base dwemer weapon, the bow and arrows would be tough to figure out stat wise anyway. I had to invent a one hander for the long sword, and would be okay with doing so for another weapon. It takes a long of time and comparison to do though, and a keening bow and arrow would be quite a challenge. Right now, keening is one piece, but a bow would make it two. I would have to figure out how to split the stats between the bow and the arrows so that damage and weight is applied correctly.

A bow and arrow has no chop, slash or thrust but has damage for the bow and the arrow, with the arrow adding only a little of the overall damage. Done wrong, keening balance would be thrown off pretty easy, considering that, unlike with the other weapons I have nothing to compare the bow to in order to craft a well balanced dwemer bow and applying my percentages to both the bow and arrow would be like two keenings. So I might have to invent the arrow, and just apply enchantment and weight to it, while making the bow have all the attack modifers and such. Interesting enough, the arrows have different order than usual in the wiki lists.

Maybe a crossbow could work if one exists, but it would be mighty heavy and the issue of the different attack mechanics would still be unresolved. The biggest problem is of course the lack of a mesh. Even should I figure out what keening my like as a crossbow, we have no model.

Then too, I don't know if I like keening as a bow. How does one explain the blade? Even as restocking arrows, how would you go about breaking a sword of such power, and where does the arrow head come from after the first several shots? Keening's blade is not unlimited.

Was just asking. To be honest if any of the choices was throwable and retrievable my chars would be just as happy. Their skills are highest in marksman, not wet work, but they rarely buy things like throwing axes or darts as they seem like a waste. Why buy a special ax that I can throw but not pull out of the corpse of my enemy and use to bash his friends head in? Better to stick with arrows and bolts then and take them both out before they know what's happening is their usual motto. Even when they get rushed and end up in close combat they'd still rather switch from longbow to crossbolt rather than pick up a blade they're clumsy at weilding - might look odd, shooting someone in the chest with a bolt when they're only a foot in front of you but why mess with what works :shrug:

Yes, I'm not a marksman, but I do believe those who are have had harder time in MW. Have to carry a supply of arrows, so that weighs you down forcing you to have to boost strength a little or forgo certain amounts of armor to be effective. (ie light armor or wearing an incomplete set) Then too, most areas where quest take places are in caves, most of which are narrow and don't lend well to a long range shooter. To top it all off, the MQ doesn't even give you a long range option at all, because it has a distance check. All this effectively forces you to carry a blade anyway, further encumbering you. I understand it can be annoying, and is why I don't use one normally.

All the same Diva, if you can't hit with a blade that's no fault of the game's. Even in RL archers tend to be taught with a dagger or other manner of short blade, because range can only go so far. At some point you find yourself face to face with an enemy. There is no time to notch that arrow, so you must slice. In the middle ages most bowmen kept a dagger in their boot or at their side for just such a reason.

Keening starts off as a short sword, so in theory the game is actually built around what an archer's skill set should be. They may have been early snipers, but if your not in a group you are actually more like a ranger. So when I think of a character as an archer I think of:


Combat
and
Luck (or stealth)


Major and minors

Short Blade (it's lighter so goes better with bow) or long sword (which is game standard but makes less sense)

Acrobatics

Marksman

Light Armor

Hand to Hand


Athletics

Illusion

Speechcraft

Restoration (needs to be able to patch self)

Sneak

Now not all of these fit the game perfectly, but they actually go pretty well together considering and are what I think an archer would either be taught or have to learn. The point is, as an archer you can't always rely on the bow and arrow especially if you want to go stomping off alone. In MW, you have ample opportunity to practice with both weapons, so if I were you I'd keep them balanced. Then you don't need a keening bow.

Well, like I said, as it stands there is no reason to remake a bow since "the enchantment is in the blade" However, Maholix, I don't think it would be difficult to get the stats from the existing Dwarven Crossbow. My suggestion stands. If anyone is interested in making Keening arrows (in a limited supply), I'll write it in, but I still haven't seen any decent argument for a need to remake a bow of any sort.

Kiteflyer,

As far as hitting the heart with sunder and then stepping back to shoot at it . . . I can see someone playing it like that.

Huh, wouldn't you know it? There are no glass, ebony, or even daedric bolts. I never noticed that before. :mellow:

Anyways, if I get a little time on my hands I'll figure out the numbers based on the crossbow, just in case someone does make a good case for that. I would not have to create a complexed item out of nothing in this case, just the bolt. Although I know the bolt would carry the enchantment, I'm just trying to figure if in this case Keening would be a regular dwemer bolt save for the weight and enchantment on it, or if an attack push is something I should be adding to both the bow and bolt since they are both part of Keening in theory.

So far I am leaning toward simply making the bolt a heavier dwemer bolt, and giving only the bow the usual increases as this seems better balanced.

However despite my willingness, I gotta agree, there doesn't really seem to be a good reason for a bow variant in this case.

Best way to do a Keening marksman weapon would be to make an item (most likely xbow) incorporating the blade, undamaged, into the design. Instead of shooting normal bolts out of it, firing it causes Keening to slice through the ether and shoot a special weightless bolt that the heart would make a check for. Or something. So kind of an infinitely-respawning bolt factory crossbow that would have to have some drawback (like magicka consumption) to make it balanced.

It would also be freaking awesome.

My characters don't have a harder time at all - they have an easier time. Thanks to GCD and with visible distance maxed they get every potential hostile before said hostile even sees them, with one shot and a hundred silver arrows and bolts in her inventory along with her bow, crossbolt and armor isn't terribly heavy at all compared to one piece of dwarven. She does carry a blade for assassinations where the area is packed with people she doesn't have to or want to kill, still her skills are hugely inferior in blade so she'll usually rely on an enchantment like paralysis to get her through in close quarters if it's got a long enough life she'll still step back and finish them with the bow and save on her enchantment.



I never said it was the fault of the game. I said "hey this is a nice idea but if we're thinking of giving everyone the option to change Keening into something they'd find more useful based on their character types my characters prefer ranged weapons. Is that possible?"

Sounds like you have a complete lack of respect for the marksman and magical arts. That's fine, a lot of fantasy players prefer swinging some kind of sharp weapon around constantly with little thought on attack strategy, I prefer a little planning. That's how I play. The joy of this game is that's how I can choose to play.

Now I didn't step in here to get a lecture on how my playing style doesn't fit, is impractical or simply too hard, I came in to ask a simple question based on my playing style and an interesting concept I'd never considered before. Because the problem isn't that my characters can't use a blade, even the entirely magical based Necromancer can wield one now and again because she has to in order to prep her corpses, I asked because that's not their strong suits and I was under the mistaken impression that this was a mod to make Keening more useful to players who aren't skilled in shortblade, I seem to have been mistaken.

Thanks Elaura for considering ways of making Keening into a marksman type weapon. I do appreciate it.

It was, but the original idea was to keep Keening some type of melee weapon, both for lore reasons and because there were only new melee meshes released. The team has discussed making a marksman version, but again, we would need new meshes for the bow/crossbow and/or textures for the new arrows. Without those, we cannot create a proper marksman version of Keening. The closet we could come would probably be the sniper rifler from Assassin's Armory, but I doubt Yagram would have the resources to make something like that. He could probably make the basic shape, but not necessarily the explosive powder needed to fire the bolt, nor the ability to keep the rifle from blowing up when fired.

That's perfectly reasonable. I'll look into what meshes and textures I have on my gaming machine once its out of the shop and see if there's anything suitable. I've heard glass mentioned quite often, so a glass weapon would be preferred to retexture if I can find one with suitable usage permissions?

We'd either need pre made textures or someone that would be willing to create new ones, but I don't have a problem with it provided neither Elaura nor Kiteflyer do as well. If it's a bow, maybe a glass/metal one would work; a crossbow would need to be mostly metal. We'll have to discuss it after you find what you have, DD.