Well I took a look around to see what I could find, http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=mods.detail&id=5108 might work nicely he tends to also create bolts that auto restock in inventory and his texture maps seem top notch so retexturing the bolts and entire pistol should be doable to match Keening's look. In theory at least, never tried retexturing his models before. At the least one of his arrows or bolts could probably be retextured to match Keening without too many headaches, his mapping looks excellent. On the other hand I also found this http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=7903 with open permissions and what looks like a fairly detailed map, the shaft might be changed to to Keening's blue but I can't download it at the moment to look at the mapping.

If the mapping is simple enough I should be able to apply Keening's current textures to whatever mesh is eventually decided on, nuttin fancy but it should suffice.

I don't have a problem with putting another weapon in at all. I would like it to match vanilla Keening as closely as possible. The weapons we are using now are tweaked vanilla meshes with vanilla textures. I'd like to keep it this way if it's at all possible. This allows texture replacers to work on our mod's weapons.

Of course, now we'll have to find a mace mesh that is suitable. I don't know if Elaura bites, but I don't want to find out.
A staff should be doable as well. I'm thinking a mage type staff with Keening's blade encased in the end.

Any modelers out there up for a quick job?


KF

Melchior made some for me last year (I've tweaked the UV map), but I've not gotten around to releasing them.

I could try making dwemer bolts/arrows with Keening tips. :

As for a mace... I might be able to come up with something using BlueEagle's glass mace mesh. I tried this morning to use a retextured ebony mace (which was reworked to be a glass mace), but I don't like how the keening spikes just pop out of the mace head with no visual transition. I'm just too picky. As for staves - I don't know if I could come up with something. MA released a cool dwemer staff resource, maybe plop keening textures somewhere? I dunno.

Hmm, that changes it a bit, vanilla bows, bolts, arrows and crossbows have terrible mapping and I'll definitely have to wait till my machine is back to scan my disk and see what's available. I might be able to find some glass throwing stars though either way I could always try and use default textures on the meshes first and see how they handle them.

Diva, I'm sorry if you misunderstood my intent. I should have been more clear.

The purpose has been so far to keep it lore friendly and I didn't see how to do this with a bow and arrow system, because the magic of keening is in the blade. Even if it could broken in some feasible manner, the arrows would run dry, because there isn't another keening to break down for more ammo. Since this is the case, I was actually trying to sympathize with you, and my "lecture" was meant as some pointers just in case a bow couldn't come about.

If you notice, I did volunteer to figure out how to add keening stats for a bow type weapon despite it seeming like a challenge. To be fair, as I am no marksman, I forgot there was indeed a dwemer crossbow in the game, as there are only two types crossbows in the game anyway. I thought at first I would have to invent a bow and the arrows for it, and still said I was willing.

I did not mean to come off preachy, I was trying to help and was pretty tired, so I guess it didn't come out right. Let's put that behind us and start anew. Since there is work towards a mesh, I will get to work pounding out figures for a bolt and applying the proper stats to the crossbow. While I am at it, it seems a mace and staff and wanted, so I'll look into that too.

Since this bow is your idea Diva, can you think of a lore friendly way it can be implemented? I don't see restocking arrows with a keening tip as very friendly, but there must be a way.


EDIT:

Alaisiagae, did this unreleased mod have dwemer bolts too then? If they are well made it could save me a lot of work assuming they come pre-stated. If it was just a models type pack and didn't have suggested stats, I will get back to work inventing the balanced stats.

We could use pretty much any mesh. I'm only concerned about using other textures. It's nice to have the ability to use a texture replacer, such as Darknut's, to upgrade the look of the weapons across the board. If we use our own textures the reforged Keening will look substantially different than any of the other dwarven weapons. If we stick with the vanilla textures, the replacers should change whatever form of Keening is being used to match as well. It may be a bit of a pain, but I think it's worth the extra effort.


KF

Take your pick:
http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr50/Alaisiagae/Mod%20Screenshot%20MW/Misc/art_keening_mace_0.jpg
http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr50/Alaisiagae/Mod%20Screenshot%20MW/Misc/art_keening_mace_1.jpg (blue_eagle's glass mace mesh)
http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr50/Alaisiagae/Mod%20Screenshot%20MW/Misc/art_keening_mace_2.jpg

Wow! Nice work.

Personally I like number three the best. It looks like Keening's blade attached to a normal mace. Fits with the others perfectly!


KF

Personally I like the third one best. It looks to be the best quality of the three and seems more like the keening blade was added. The first looks too broken up and molded into the mace, and the second has too much blade.. but that third one looks most like keening got refitted to a usual mace.

If an acceptable model is found I'll see what I can do with the textures when I've got my pc back. If the meshes need remapping I'll have to see if I can't get someone to do that for me first.

As for arrows or bolts, you only need to hit the heart once right? So restocking arrows wouldn't be necessary as if someone's going for the marksman keening they're probably pretty confident they can hit it with one shot, let alone four or five. So they'd only need a full quiver, the extras are for redundancy sake (there will probably be moving targets getting in the way) and potential display after the mission is over. Unless I'm missing some other reason to run around Morrowind with Keening. Still it would be nice to incorporate some of the feel of Keening into the cross/bow so that the even after piercing the heart, a character could still wander around with a Keening type weapon even if they decided to put it's remaining magic on display at home.

Too bad the heart isn't lootable or we could just go with a throwable 100% retrievable weapon, then the existing models might work with just a little nifskopery to say shorten the axe and change it's scale. I was thinking of the restocking arrows mostly as the marksman's lament, you always seem to lose your coolest weapons eventually, when those items are unique - the greater the woe.

As for the maces I like the first - cause it's pretty

Since we're in the brainstorming phase, let's see what those *who are presently involved* want out of this.

Jac wants a staff. His idea is a regular quarterstaff (one-handed or two-handed). He suggests metal with pieces of the blade inlaid in the shaft.

Elaura wants a blunt weapon. It doesn't matter if it's a mace, flail, morningstar, etc. It can also be one or two handed. Of those offered, Thing 1 (art_keening_mace_0.jpg) is the one I would probably have the least difficulty explaining ingame.

DarkDiva wants a ranged weapon. DD, what would you prefer? We might as well give Alaisiagae an idea of what we are looking for, even if she has a different vision.

Here's a couple suggestions on the ranged weapon:

The bolts/arrows should have heads made of the blade.
The bow/crossbow/rifle/pistol could have the leftover pieces inlaid in the metal.

Jac has looked up the Assassins Armory 'Dwemer Bolt Rifle' which has all but one vanilla texture. That one custom texture is for the firing only. It fires regular bolts and I don't see gunpowder as being out of the realm of Yagrum's abilities or supplies. Morrowind, being a volcanic Island, would have all the ingredients in abundance. Can you say Alchemy? Also, the author gives perms for use, he just wants credit and an email to let him know.

I think you need to hit the heart three times before it will break and disappear, so there would need to be at least three bolts made out of Keening. I was thinking of 5, but even that may be a bit low.

As for the maces, I too prefer the first one.

I couldn't find any pictures online for Assasins Armory but I thought of looking in it for a crossbow. Crossbows seem more in line with Dwemer tech to me than regular bows. And this part:



Is right along with what I was thinking. That way even when the arrows are gone the marksman player would still feel like they had Keening. Also the way the code patch keeps fixing wonderful things at some point perhaps the enchanted bows problem will be fixed and at that point the crossbow with enlay could be a more permanent marksman Keening? I'm just thinking allowed with that last bit, probably wishful thinking at that but if no one ever wished aloud the awesome "inspired by a forum post" mods would never have existed

Anyway I'm glad to see everyone might get a chance to work with their strengths and I'll do my best to help out making it happen, though my skills be limited.

@Jac - I'd say atleast 15 would be a 'safe' number if you have to hit the heart 3x's instead of once. You've got the 3 to kill it with, and twelve for being an idiot (someone gets in the way, itchy trigger finger, horrible aim, overwelming desire to use the uber weapon on a lower level creature to see what happens) or display once it's all over. Also I'm pretty sure some people like to gut the gods with Keening too so having some left over might come in handy.

Since either way I will have to invent objects as a basis for the ranged keening, wither it be long bow or cross bow, I would like to give the dwemer items I am inventing full stats.. much like I did with the long sword. But to do this I need to know something. The MCP allows for projectiles to be enchanted, but I don't know how it does so because I never tried it, not being an archer and all.

Does anyone know if the MCP adds enchantment values to the various projectiles and arrows? If so, does anyone have access to a chart saying what the enchantment values are? I need a list to compare the dwemer object to, be it bolt, arrow or both, so I can add the proper stat for this. I know keening comes pre-enchanted but a normal dwemer object would not.

You actually have to hit the heart five times with Keening, after hitting it once with Sunder.

As for the mace, it's Elaura's choice. The weapon was requested by her before the mod was even made.

On the arrows/bolts, I was thinking of maybe 20 pieces that would require wraithguard to handle, but I don't think it would work seamlessly because the Keening enchantment is partially based on a script (keening_ouch) that would have to be placed on the arrows/bolts, causing them not to stack, and thus causing them to have to be equipped singly every shot. The same problem would crop up for throwing knives or stars. I think the closest we're going to come is a dwarven crossbow that restocks it's own ammo. The problem with that is it turns Keening into an uber weapon unless we figure out some sort of downside to add to balance it back out.


KF

The MCP adds the ability to enchant multiple items at once. It doesn't do anything to the items themselves.


KF


Edit: Sorry for the double post. Got too excited.

Well, it's all up to kiteflyer as to whether or not the new weapons are implemented. I can write it so that everything is logical and lore friendly. After all, even the gunpowder is in the original Tribunal Dwemer package bombs. The reworking of the housing is not a problem for Yagrum and using sound to break the blade is completely lore friendly considering the reason you need Sunder for the Heart is because it was made through 'Tonal Architecture'. As far as Jac and I are concerned, we can incorporate the new weapons so that they make perfect sense, but unless kiteflyer is willing, it's not gonna happen.

EDIT: in light of the projectiles not stacking, perhaps giving the Crossbow a limited number of total uses?

http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr50/Alaisiagae/Mod%20Screenshot%20MW/Misc/art_keening_bolt.jpg. Many thanks to Melchior Dahrk for the meshes.

I don't see anything terribly wrong with making 100 keening arrows/bolts and jacking up the recovery GMST for ammo. Might as well just make them infinite bolts/arrows, or replenish your stock (for a large fee) from Yagrum.

That looks great, Alaisiagae! I can't believe how quickly you're turning these out.

Looks great Alaisiagae.

Quick question. Could you retexture a standard dwemer crossbow to look like Keening's blade was inlaid into the bolt channel (where the bolt lays before firing)?
If you can pull that off we'll have a good enough base to work with. I've got an idea brewing.

So to make sure I got this straight arrows aren't actually enchantable via the MCP? Because arrows and such don't have a listed "enchant" value on the wiki, but I thought the purpose of the multi enchant was so you didn't have to hunt for arrows that had been enchanted already, but could now make your own.

Uh... nope, I can't do that (segmenting a mesh) in Nifskope. I don't know how to use Blender or any 3D modeling program.

That looks great!

I do have a question though - why not just apply Keenings abilities in a constant effect to the crossbow? Cast on strike doesn't work for bows but constant effects and cast on use does. That would allow the 'inlay' to convey the magic to the bow and the arrows to be a stylistic addition that could be restocked from Yagrum or switched out with whatever the character scavenges in the field. I might be missing something big but that seems the simplest way. Unless it's the script for the hit that's the real worry not the enchantments? If that's it perhaps a packet of 'scripted' arrows are given with the crossbow preloaded, once those are gone regular ammo could be used but the script wouldn't be attached for the big battle?

Sorry if I'm missing something obvious just trying to find solutions with limited access to the actual problem :shrug:

Maybe I'll think better after breakfast...

I was thinking along the same lines. If we can find or have made a dwarven crossbow that looks like Keening's blade is inlaid into the bolt channel, we can make "special" bolts that take a small portion of the blade with it to the target through a barb or something that scraqes the blade on the way out. These special bolts could be a one time package to simulate the wear on Keening's blade. The crossbow could fire normal projectiles as if it were a normal crossbow, but would only work on the heart with the special bolts. The special bolts would be very limited in number (say 15-20) and couldn't be restocked (without cheating). This all SHOULD be doable, I haven't tested anything at all yet.



KF

You could make your own before MCP, but you had to make them one at a time. Now, with MCP, you can enchant stacks of bolt, arrows, etc. with one soulgem.



KF


Edit: Dang it! another DP! I gotta quit drinking so much coffee. Sorry.