I hear all these people saying, "It should have rankings and instances and drops and" blah blah blah.

No.
This isn't WoW.
This isn't Everquest.
This isn't Lineage.
This isn't Flyff.
This isn't Maple Story.
This isn't Conan.
This isn't any other MMO that has ever been made.

This is Fallout, and as such here are some trends I think would keep it true to its feeling.
And in fact, typical things found in many of these other MMOs are exactly what should be set aside to keep Fallout distinguished.

Also, pre-warning: this is long. If you do not have 5-10 minutes to read, or if you just have a limited attention, do not go further. However if you look at the bold and underlined portions of text, you'll get the gist of what I'm poking at.

First thing to keep in mind:
You do not get a pip-boy
There are going to be thousands of players, and every single one of them can't be from the vault.

No Global or Zone chat/talk
Things such as trash-talking, negotiations and barter, and even the general exchange of information should all have to be done in person. That's a scenario of the wastes: no instant communication. There are no phones, and there is no internet. And then you could even have players who start acting as couriers for caps; clans would have spies to follow each other and try to hear information.

No rankings If you hear about "So and So" being the best gun-fighter west of the Sierra Nevada, you hear it by word of mouth (again, no instant communication). If two players think they're the best at something, then they'd have to duke it out or have a contest to show their skills. If your precious suit of power-armor is in need of fixing, it's up do you to hunt down somebody that can repair it; don't go blabbing about it too much though, you might attract unwanted attention!

No "threat" viewing / No viewing other player's gear or inventory
You can't look at a person and automatically know just how much of a danger they are. That's part of what makes the wasteland tricky; that older fellow you're planning on mugging just might be a seasoned veteran. The female raider threatening you could just be a 1st level thug trying to talk you out of goods. There are unknown dangers everywhere you look.
Along the lines of no-threat viewing, you also should not be able to see what group a player is associated with. You could show generosity to a stranger, and it just could turn out that they're with the Brotherhood of Steel and you reap the benefits of your kindness with sweet loot. You could help another stranger and follow them out to their hut and help their injured friend, only to get ambushed by raiders. If players do have alliances in the game, it should have to be shown by wearing items of clothing that signify their group; a colored bandanna on the head or arm, a certain color jacket, something to set them apart. This would also make it possible for sneaky or smooth-talking players to infiltrate groups.

You should not be able to discern how much damage a players weapon will inflict from looking at it, or how much their armor protects them. For all you know they could have body-armor underneath their clothing. For all you know, they could have smaller weapons on them (pistols, knives) that you can't see (on the inside of a coat, or tucked in a boot).

Whenever you look at another player to view them you should be given a small but descriptive text blurb about the player,
"He stands about 6'2" and looks energetic for his age. It looks as though he's packing lightly for travel, but he has an air of confidence about him and a focused look."

Subtle ways of saying, "He's experienced, he's perceptive, and he can defend himself"
No colored text to provide indicators either.

No fixed prices on items
You should not be able to pick up a jacket and see "Worth XXX Caps"
How much an item is valued should be related to your Barter skill; the better your skill the more accurate your appraisal of the item's worth. Not only that but players with higher barter skills would be able to get more out of junk goods then people who couldn't make deals. If they've got a little speech as well they might even be able to swindle a bit.

Slot-based Inventory
Now this is different from Fallout, I know. However I think for things such as inventory-management to become pertinent it must be included.
That and no matter how strong you are, there's no way you can carry 3 missile launchers, a minigun, a flame thrower, and all the ammunition to go with it. You can carry that much weight, yes, but that much space being taken would encumber you. Just because I can lift the weight of 20 canvas paintings does not mean that I can carry them with me.

Not only that, but players should not be their own personal banks. Items should have to be contained in secure containers (watch out for people with lock-pick skills!), or hidden in secret stashes. Perhaps a player could start up a bank for others to keep their gear in. However there should be nothing to say that he couldn't be robbed by somebody with the manpower to do so. Even NPC banks should be susceptible to robberies.

No world Map
The map was a function of the pip-boy, and I doubt every single player of the game will get to be a vault-dweller. Honestly I think that maps should be player-made. Of course some NPC maps should be available too, but they should be lacking many details of the wastes since most of them are just trying to survive in their little towns and communities. NPC maps would only provide you with the locations of a few nearby settlements, and maybe a possible danger (like a radscorpion lair, or a radioactive area). You should be able to take a map and make notes on it, or draw in your own features OR remove features.

Think of it in a person-to-person basis: "I tell ya buddy, just the other day I saw these brotherhood folks getting into it with a pair of death claws. They cut right through their armor and chopped'em up like brahmin steak! I don't know if it's safe any more and I sure as hell ain't fit to use their gear, but I know a fellow like yourself would be interested. What do you say? Give me 200 caps and I'll give you a map to where the bodies and gear is at"
But if you buy my map, I send you on a wild-goose chase through the mountains!
These are just the kinds of things that should happen.

And again with clans/factions/organizations, you could make fake maps to your bases and spread your own misinformation.

Bounty Hunting
I saw another thread here on the forums mentioning this; it's a great idea, but I think there are too many features that make it easy for the hunter. When you receive a bounty on somebody, you should only be privy to whatever information is provided for it. If you're lucky they will have a picture. But this would be rare since working cameras are few and far between. What's more likely to happen is you'll get a name, and a description of your mark; in fact the description your payee gives you may be directly taken from the descriptive text of your mark (He stands about 6'2"...). This way the bounty-hunter has to use his wits; you can't just go into a town and shout "HEY, HAS ANYBODY SEEN THIS DOODZ???" Because then:
-Everybody will know you're a hunter.
-Word of the mark will probably find its way to your target.
-Your target might be right there to hear it, and could kill you.
However you should be able to get information from NPCs; if your mark has been in view of an NPC, you could get a brief description, "Oh ya, I seens a guy come by here like that 'bout a day ago"
And if the mark talked to that NPC you could a description with more (quantity) information.

Beyond that, there should be another challenge to the description you're provided: the detail and accuracy of the mark should be related to your payee's intelligence and perception. It would make the difference between, "He's tall, his hair is brown, and I think his name is Marcus" and "He's about 6'2", he's got short brown hair and a goatee, he frequently stays at the Bar, and his name is Martin" (Notice how the names are similar, that is intentional)

Without a good interpretation of the information, you could kill the wrong person and in turn receive no bounty, and become a criminal!

And of course, a player with a bounty on their head will have no clue about it unless they hear it by word of mouth...perhaps the NPC the bounty hunter just talked to will warn the person with the mark on their head!

Weather
Needs to be in the game, as simple as that.
However in some parts there should also be dust-storms.

Basic Survival
Now it might be a bit overkill to have things like, "If you stay out in rain too long you get hypothermic or get pneumonia" etc etc.
Before continuing this I'd also like to say: player stats should include health AND endurance AND stamina.
Endurance would measure your exhaustion from the environment and physical activities; tiredness (from lack of sleep), hunger, hydration, and so on.
Stamina would measure your ability to physically perform; running, jumping, lifting, dragging.

However I think it is more than reasonable to say you must eat and you must drink. They had this to a very minor degree in the first Fallout; if you didn't keep a water-canteen in your inventory while traveling you would start taking damage from dehydration. There should be varying levels of endurance that correlate to your performance.
-Over 3/4 to full Endurance would mean you've been sleeping great, you've been fed well and have plenty of fluids in ya; you're ready for whatever the day throws at you.
- ? to ? Endurance means you're a little tired, you're a bit hungry, and you could use a drink.
-? to ? Endurance means you're tired, you need a meal, and you're feeling parched
- Less than ? Endurance means you need sustenance or you will die (0 endurance = death); at this point you start to gradually lose health, you're dehydrated and start hallucinating, you may occasionally faint from exhaustion, and you're terribly hungry.

This would...
-Ensure that players have to manage their inventories well; do you take a lot of ammo on the trip because you're worried about raiders? Or do you take enough food with you just in case you're delayed for some reason?
-Are more mindful about local events going on; you just got into town, and you're down to your last brahmin steak and bottle of nuka cola. But what's this? There's no food to buy because the nearby farming settlement got razed by raiders? Looks like you've got a vested interest AND a new quest to go on...
-Players can't just "LOL I'm going to walk to the other side of the map" you could run into enemies of course, but moreso you have to be active and aware of your own survival.
-You could receive food or goods that are tainted or poisoned, and could actually fall into worse circumstances.
-Clans/organizations/groups could kill somebody in a super-cool mafia way: knock them out, ride them out to the middle of a desert on a brahmin, and leave them there with no items. A REMINDER: things like this are the reason there should be no global/zone/instant chat.
-Raider players couldn't just cause havoc in a town and then camp out in the mountains for a month; not unless they had the resources to do so.

Not only for all those reasons, but this would also make players who have invested in the Outdoorsman skill a valuable asset. And on that note,

The Outdoorsman Skill
This skill should be just as valuable as those of a gun-hand. Outdoorsman should be able to make food out of wild animals (such as rad scorpions, dogs, deathclaw, strange mutant creatures, and whatever else), maybe make food or healing/anti-venom agents from brush and flora, and be able to pick up the scent of creatures (including humans). The outdoorsman should also have a means of finding potable (or somewhat potable) sources of water in the wastes. They should get all kinds of bonuses to sneaking, running, traps, and whatever else is applicable in the wilderness. They should also be able to find tracks of creatures that have traveled through places (again, including players).
-The outdoorsman should have another variety of traps; ones such as snares and the like that immobilize or cripple whatever triggers it. As such, Outdoorsman could be a very nice skill to use in the profession of bounty-hunting.
-Tracks and scents should also provide text-descriptions, with detail/accuracy based on the degree of skill.
"You think that somewhere, north east of where you are, that you can smell a faint bit of Brahmin...and something else. You think it's about a mile away."
However "and something else" could be deathclaw, scorpions, mutants, or other humans.
Tracks would have similar descriptions.

With the idea of tainted food; if you just kill a radscorpion and try to eat some meat off of it, you are just asking to get sick and lose lots of endurance. Think about it: how many hunters do you know of (these days) that kill an animal and then eat it raw? If you had an outdoorsman with you however, he could prepare the meat (in some mystical-technique only they know ) and make it ready for consumption. Same could be said for tainted bottles of Nuka Cola. I think it'd be reasonable though, that the quality of the food be improved at the cost of a loss of quantity of food; if the food is prepared you lose some of it in the process of making it good to eat.

Full PvP
As simple as that.
There are no "arenas" in which you duel.
There are no "flags" which you put up if you want to fight.
Town-guards (which will only be at REALLY big settlements) may offer some protection, however they may also be indifferent to your problems.
No place is safe; you may get killed at any time, by any means, at any place. That last player you traded with? Guess you didn't catch the active grenade he slipped into your pocket.
That merchant you just traded ammo with for food? He poisoned the food, and he's going to follow you on your trip out of town to get some items off of your body.

Level-scaled PvP Looting
Of course it would be hard to get anywhere if somebody could kill you and rob you of all your possessions. At the same time, it would not be Fallout if you did not have a vested interest in your survival; "Dang I died. I'll just respawn and keep trying it out" No, sorry, none of that here. If you die there should be exp. penalties, repeated deaths in a short time-period should have the possible result of items being destroyed or left on your corpse, and players should be able to loot items from each others' bodies.

However it should be proportionate to the level; it would be like a progressive value-increase of what can be taken from your body.
-If you're low level, only small amounts of money and mediocre items can be taken. If somebody kills you they could take say, 20% of your caps, and an item of X value or less (such as a single stim-pack, or a few clips of ammo).
-If you're mid-level, the amount of booty should increase. If you're killed they can take 45% of your caps, and an item of Y value or less, or several X items that add up to the value of Y (so they could choose between say, 2 stimpacks and a few clips of ammo, or they could take the SMG you have. One or the other.)
-If you're high-level, the risks continue to increase. Up to 70% of your your caps can be taken, and now they can take items of Z value or less, or several Y items, or all X items (They could take the rocket-launcher, or instead they can take the assault rifle and some ammo for it, or they could take all your basic ammo, stimpacks, maps, and the like. But only ONE category can be chosen).
Further than that, the player who is looting does not get to choose how to sort the items into the categories; when you die the items are automatically arranged at random.
-At MAXIMUM level, the risk is at its fullest. The killer can take all of your money. They can take all X items, all Y items, and several Z items, whatever they've got room to carry.

This has a few dynamics to it:
-Yes, you can get the most from killing a max-level character...but they're going to have an extremely high rate of skill, and will be able to defend themselves very well.
-Max-level players will be well versed in social-relations and survival in the game. You could be trying to chase them out of town to kill them in the wildnerness, but for all you know they could just be playing with you as a cat plays with a mouse. Or if you try to kill a player, they could put out a hit on you.
-This would highly encourage players to work as groups. Going lone-wolf in such an environment rarely works out; which is in fact why (in Fallout) groups such as the Raiders, the Brotherhood of Steel, the Super Mutants, Followers of the Apocalypse, and the Gun Runners exist. There is obviously safety and security in numbers. Going lone-wolf does not work out until you have had your share of adventures and mishaps.
-This would make scavenging a feasible way to get items; some player wanders out into the wastes without a map, without much food or water, and without a group. Big surprise they die? Nope. And today's your lucky day since you just came across their corpse!

But bear in mind, with these suggestions...
-Nobody will know each others' levels. You will not be hunted down automatically when you reach the level cap; only if you make a name for yourself and attract attention will things like this happen.
-Since the formation of groups would be encouraged, there's a reduced risk of being singled out to get looted (however bandits will pick out lone travelers because they're easier to rob...it's true).

Capturing other Players
Players, with the right materials (namely rope and collars) and the right situation (taking out all of somebody's stamina to make them faint) should also be able to capture other players. This isn't as bad as you think though; your captors cannot force you to eat, and you could let yourself die of starvation/dehydration, thus letting you spawn somewhere else. There is no possible way for one player to indefinitely confine another. But ask yourself: are you willing to starve yourself at the risk of losing items? Also from the starvation issue, captors would most likely sell you as soon as possible; in which case the person captured could have a set of quests to complete from an NPC to "buy-back" their freedom. OR you could just ditch the NPC and say "F*** your quests" ...but then you might get a bounty on your head!


All NPCs can be killed
As simple as that.
Some player or group of players going around killing NPCs?
Guess you'd better get out of town, or stop them.
But killing all the NPCs would be bad for them too. They killed all the farmers? Guess what, now THEY will starve too
However NPCs shouldn't be permanently lost; new NPCs could respawn in the period of a week to replace them, however they would be an NPC with a different personality.

And finally:
There should be ONE server with a "hardcoe" Fallout setting
I don't know if any of you have seen this: http://fonline.ru/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=32
But it's a community-created modification of Fallout that allows for online player. However there are 2 very distinguishing features:
-The player base is Russian and English; this means that there are occurrences of lost-in-translation moments that end up as gun-fights.
-When you die, you are dead.
Your character cannot be remade or revived, your items are left with your corpse, and that's that.
This brings the ideal of survival to its truest form; you don't go trash-talking you just met because they might have connections. Wandering alone in the wastes could have severe consequences. Playing with explosives is DANGEROUS. Tactical-withdraw (eg. running-away) from a firefight is a VERY good option. Bounty hunters would have to play a very dangerous game of cat and mouse.

A whole new world of dynamics is brought to life when you've got one life to live.

The End!
So you've gotten this far, thanks for reading! I'm sorry it was so long, but once I got typing I had a few more ideas coming to mind. In any case, what do you think?
Do some things seem too imbalanced or unnecessary? Do you love these ideas? Do you have any you think should be included as well? Let's hear it.

And result is:



I am all for the survival game. I mean I played hardcoe on both diablo and hellgate.
However what you describe is really cool for a FPS MMO, where people that play have a BF2 mentality "dying is ok", however the common RPG folks will whine all day if their gear is looted after a successful backstabbing.

Not saying it's a bad idea, just saying we are a minority who want a game that takes balls to play. Most of the people want to grind for epic gear though.

We seem to have very simmilar view of an Fallout Online game. I agree with almost all of your ideas. Good stuff worth to read! The Sarmatians

I kinda agree, but all this is impossible. Not be cause world is cruel, but its even technically impossible.
No chat? What if users have device called phone and talk to each other anyway?
You cant separate player's real life from game life.

As far as distingushability (sic) goes - find me game developed by gamesas that wasnt original and one-of-a-kind

Fallout will be distinguished enough with its post-apocaliptic, future-world theme. There is hard to find sci-fi MMO out there, not to mention post-apocaliptic ones lol.
btw, I cant recall any sci-fi mmo AT ALL, except those eve-like space ones, wich shouldn't be even compared to fallout's hardcoe sci-fi theme. (im not an mmo expert tho).

Well ... Tabula Rasa, but this is dead. They were shut down the server on 1. March.


Oh and Star Wars Galaxies.

Ok, I read all of your post and wanted to comment.

"You do not get a pip-boy" Yes, I agree most will not get a PIPboy. But you should be able to acquire one. If not make your own from scavenged parts depending on your skill.

No Global or Zone chat/talk From what I have seen from all the Fallout stuff out there, there are hundreds of vaults. Although not everyone will have to or want to be a vault dweller. I somewhat agree on the global chat. But again I will take the middle road on this. I think that in a town there can be a community chat. But once you leave town thats it. Unless you get a radio and might want to talk with others who also have a radio and have your frequency.

No rankings The middle ground would be that people who have lived in the wastelands know how tough certain creatures are. I NPC group might have a reputation of having good equipment so they might be tougher. Basically there will always be info from various sources as to how tough things are. Unlike PCs in the world. Realistically there will be levels. Also there are going to be key pieces of inventory that will tell everyone what quest they got it from letting others know how tough they are. Also like most games there will be heavy resources online to get info on certain areas ingame if not all areas. So basically if players have no idea what to expect they will just go online and look it up. There must also be a reliable place to repair equipment. There has to be that. Basically a town or base to get gear and heal and fix stuff and level up or whatever.

No "threat" viewing / No viewing other player's gear or inventory I agree with this.


No fixed prices on items Well I agree with this form the most part. There should be a way of tracking what you have sold stuff for in the past and where. If you were really in this world living it day to day you would remember what you sold for how much and where. But we are not... We are people playing a game and in some cases might only play once a week. There has to be a way to track inventory and item prices. Most of the gear should come from the wasteland. But there will be barter stations throughout and they will have lots of stuff to barter with typically. Specially if there is only one in town.

Slot-based Inventory I agree with the idea but I am sure it will not happen. Think this way. You are a player out in the wastes and you find a crate of rocket launchers. You will want to haul them back to barter way to get caps or whatever. But you will not want to drop whatever you are doing such as finishing a quest just to go all the way back to town to sell 5 rocket launchers. Players simply will not do this. If I had to do that everytime I got a lot of stuff I don't think I would be playing this game very long. No matter what I want this game to survive and and prosper so I can enjoy my time playing. The most important thing to remember when playing a game is to have FUN!!! If you don't have fun then you wont play.

No world Map I agree with this to start but as you explore around the world you should be able to get pieces of maps and put them together as you play to eventually make a pretty nice map of the areas you have explored. Even to some mapping yourself. I will enjoy this aspect of the game the greatest I think. In all the fallout games I wanted to go to every map area in the game to explore all I can. I would never buy a map from a player as I don't know the validity of it. I guess I have to see it for myself. If there will somebody who sells maps it will be me.

Bounty Hunting I agree with this somewhat. Who can make bounties on people? What does the person who makes the bounty get? So many things can go wrong with this I can't even imagine. Lets say I am a big shot in a town and I (as a PC) want to put a bounty on someone for 200 caps. So I post something at the local tavern and you show up to take me up on my offer. So I send you out to kill this other PC. I ask that you bring back his jacket to prove that you have done the job. How do I know the jacket he brings back is the PCs that I wanted killed. What do I get out of this? Knowing that the PC just respawned and is out there somewhere still. And I have this jacket worth 43 caps?! What did I gain for putting the bounty on him? The bounty system would have to be NPC based to give people incentive to go do tasks like that. The NPC doesn't care if he just lost money.

Weather If they leave weather out the game completely to save money and get the game out quicker so be it. I really don't care. They can add it later on if they want.

Basic Survival Again I am in the middle of the road on this. I think that stamina should be a factor but not to the degree that you have to decide to take ammo or water. Bring both based on your strength if you can. Managing this aspect of the game could be fun for some and a nightmare for others. I propose an XP bonus for people who want to turn on food and water properties. That way you have incentive to try it out and play like that. If you don't want to you can turn off this setting. I think that this should only be done in town. Once your out there you have to deal with the wastes. You should also have to be a certain distance away from the town to get the XP bonus as to not let players take advantage of scooping up bonus XP right near town without the risk.

The Outdoorsman Skill I agree with this except the taint part. It should be radiation levels and keep it at that. Thus a geiger counter will be a must for everyone.

Full PvP I disagree with this whole heartedly. I have played in games where Full PvP was in effect. There will always be players that will simply stand there and keep killing you just to piss you off. Of to they just get off on making you miserable. I will be definitely playing on a NON PvP server as I just want to explore and have FUN without getting GANKED as someone has already posted. There must be different servers for players who want this kind of playing style. Remember this game is to make money for the good people at gamesas. if people stop playing cause they keep getting killed by a guy or a group of guys or even a guild based on just ganking people. This game will die a untimely death.

Level-scaled PvP Looting Again if they have this then it should only be on the hardcoe PvP servers.

Capturing other Players Not sure what to make of this one. Lets say a group or somebody captures you. What do they gain? Other than player grief... They could capture your character and just keep him. and not let you go for any reason. Thus you will have to roll up another character and start over. So where is the fun factor in this? What do they gain? The only way I can see this is in a guild fight where players can be captured. Only to be bartered off at the end of the fight. The other guild members have a reason to get their friend back.

All NPCs can be killed I disagree with this completely. I played in a Neverwinter nights world that a guy made. It was full PvP, including killable NPCs. Well this really obnoxious player who gave grief to all on the server finally got high enough level and went through town and kill everyone in the town. So when I logged on everyone in town was dead. Well needless to say is that I couldn't get quests I could buy rations or supplies. I couldn't sell anything. So what reason was there to play??? And you know what the guy who killed them didnt care one bit. He would wait for the server to be reset and then go in again and kill everyone. Needless to say we wanted him banned. But the guy that ran the world said it wasn't against the rules. So we told him that we realistically could play anymore. This made him think long and hard. Eventually what happened was that he made all the NPCs unkillable. This pissed off the player who was killing them and he went on a mad streak and killed everyone and anyone who logged in to play. It got to the point where people said they wouldn't play if he was still allowed to play. This called griefing now. So eventually the guy who made the world finally banned him and we all started playing again and having FUN!!!

There should be ONE server with a "hardcoe" Fallout setting I think I have covered this above. And I agree to a point. There should be as many servers for this option to allow all players who want to do this. This will be a small percentage as most players will not want to play this way.

Chaotic Law -- Trying to organize the Chaos!

You're asking too much out of a player.

Will someone actually have fun writing out their own damn maps? Will someone actually have fun when they're confused as fvck (as to why there's no initial map probably, lol) and they realize that there's no global chat? Will someone actually have fun when they can't figure out as to why there isn't any NPCs alive in the local village (then they'll try to look at their map to find the next village but there isn't one, then they try to use a global chat to ask around but there isn't one, then they just quit)? Will someone actually have fun when they realize that there isn't staged arena matches (by this point the player will be too pissed off to search for one anyway)?

Sorry bro, but it's like as if you're asking for a Fallout Simulation, and not a Fallout MMORPG.

Yeah...that's a pretty accurate summation of it.
But also, the game isn't called "Wasteland Explorer"

Essentially, I want to recapture the same kind of feeling as playing Fallout 1 for the first time:
-You don't know where anything is (unless perhaps there are bonuses you get to being a native of the wastes)
-You don't know what the value of anything is
-Authority falls into the hands of those with wealth, power, or the ability to manipulate others
-You don't know who is trustworthy; obviously raiders are bad, but there there are also people waiting around to rob you blind.
-You don't know what you'll run into (such as when you first explore around The Glow. WTF is a GANGLIOID???).
-Allies and groups are the preferred way to travel; strength and safety in numbers.
-You might be pressured to do something or face dire consequences, such as the water-chip mission. Perhaps in this it could be that you've gotten potent rad-scorpion poisoning, and the closest doctor is a day's travel away.

In a much more generic way of putting it; everything that was in Fallout 1, Fallout 2, and Fallout Tactics, but nothing from Fallout 3.

Even if none of these things are included, I want to avoid having the Fallout franchise turn into a loot-grinding PvE bluebie-fest that has none of the characteristics of being in a wasteland.



Bear in mind: the chances of finding that many rocket launchers would be quite rare. But I understand you are saying it for the sake of argument...however that is just the very mechanic I am proposing. That is also the very reason I suggesting players being able to make comments and marks on their own maps; if you find a huge stash of items, collecting by yourself will take a while. You can mark it on your map though and come back to it after you finish your quest. It should not be, "Oh man 5 rocket launchers AND a quest, I'm now super-rich in a single sitting!"

If you have something like a cart drawn by a brahmin, it'd make it much easier. Either that, or you could have multiple people take it back. You'd have to split the share a little, sure, but it'd be a secure way of getting loot.

And the survival things are more of a mechanic to make traveling a process that requires more thought and planning. Nothing like Everquest where you can instantly gate to another continent, or like WoW where you jump on a flying rat and chill out for 5 minutes. Every place you want to get to you have to walk there by foot. Not only that, but you must have the resources to travel. You say it as if having it would destroy the game, but remember this is why the importance of the outdoorsman skill would surface, as well as travelling in groups. If your character is an expert at barter, speech, and pick pocket, your character is obviously geared towards being in populated areas, not the wastelands. A character geared for the wastes though would have something closer to Outdoorsman, Sneak, and Small Weapons. Guess what: he's not going to like being in a city because he could get talked out of his money, get bad deals on trades, and get pick-pocketed.

And here's where it happens: you two join together in a group! Now your team is geared for survival in both the wastes, AND urban centers. Of course you may not HAVE to join up with a player; there could be guarded merchant caravans that go between towns that you can travel with...with the off-chance of being hit by raiders. Even then, if you join with a player it's not like you're married to them; you can take them or leave them at any point (leave them especially if being chased by death-claw!)

No man is an island, and nobody in the wasteland is The Vault Dweller themself.
You cannot be good at all skills and exceed in every aspect.

However as you also stated, perhaps some of these things would function best on their own server, as I know not all players get enjoyment from the challenge of surviving and being on your toes at all times.

You speak as though a max level player will be a nigh-invulnerable killing machine, as are players in Everquest and WoW at the highest level.

But you forget: the levels in Fallout to not get to be quite so ridiculous. Among the classic Fallout titles, Tactics had the highest levels you could reach, upwards somewhere of level 50.
But I don't think you may have played that one, or so to say, have an appreciation for just how long it really takes to get to that kind of level.
Even then, a player of that level is still susceptible to being killed by a group of lower level players; my highest-level character in Fallout 1 can get killed by a single critical hit of a minigun or rocket-launcher! So think about it...some player kills a bunch of towns-folk and other players...the players can organize (or maybe even get a Bounty from the NPCs?) to kill the player...
And if they succeed, because of his level and the loot scaling, they get (nearly) all of his gear.

However if a group of such high-level people organized...well then, that's some legitimate trouble.
But I'm sure the Brotherhood of Steel (whom in my opinion should be run by gamesas staff as a means to drive the world-story, and also to GM to a degree (they could still die though)) would be willing to hear your plea.

what you describe would be an awesome single player game .... or even a bichin lan / player hosted type multilayer game ( like how most FPS are run ) but in a persistant world that would be a recipe for failure.

from a personal standpoint it would be a blast to play through, but a late Bloomer who showed up after the initial wave of players would get totally shafted as high level players would dominate the game by controlling the market, camping recourses, PK-ing anyone who sets foot in a high level grind spot to prevent others from leveling and all other manner of jackassery. I've seen it happen time and time again, its how power levelers play.

weather you believe it or not there are "meta-guilds" out there that span multiple games at once. these players don't really care about the game its self they play to "win", and they will play anything that lets them kill others and dominate the server. to make matters worse they are loyal to each other "outside" of the game, so the level cap doesn't matter as what you can limit individually will be overcome by numbers. this is why you need programed in "brakes" on what players can do.

fixed prices = people cant inflate things to the point that you need to buy gold from a RMT site.
no involuntary PvP = people can play the game with out others interference.
no map = fvcking lost.
etc ...

in a on line game you can't "win" the game .... so people develop other methods of "winning" that usually involve screwing with other players.

but i don't want to say you cant dream ... ( i hateit when people knock my ideals ) .... and your ideas are really detailed and cool. i just think they are impractical for this genre. hay, "OC" ..... i got something for ya right here! _|_ (^.^) _|_


"MMO-RPG" = "Mass Market Oriented - Repetitive Profit Genera"
- damned things still svcked me in ...

Some of those ideas are really good, but some are just.. uhm.. not good ^^

worst idea is the full pvp. I would hate a game full off playerkillers.

full pvp would give some realistic, yes, but how realistic is it, that groups of "killers" stand in corners all the day and wait that they can kill as much people as they get, and this would be so all the day and night, every day of every week of.. you know what I mean? In such a world of corse there would be some crazy people, but I guess making a full pvp game would be a huge overkill.

Couldn't help my self I had to post a response

No "threat" viewing / No viewing other player's gear or inventory

I agree no threat viewing UNLESS, you spend lots of time building up the skill to tell how good someone is.
Ie this should be something that you have to spend lots of time/energy/etc on to improve so that only a few will ever have it. Or just don't have it all tall


As for viewing another player's gear or inventory

In general I agree but don't for get about pickpocketing.

I think that you should allow pickpocketing, and give the option of a swipe (grab bag, you don't know what you will get) or attempt an item.

Hidden items will not be allowed for an attempt on an item (but could be possibly taken during a swipe)
You would have to 'look' at the character/NPC that you are going to attempt an item from and they would get a chance to notice. (You may or may not know if you are noticed or not since the PC might decide to play 'dumb' and catch you at stealing)
Then the player can pick an item (ONE) that they want to attempt to steal/pickpocket. Nothing bigger than a handed item and no clothing.
The player who is being stolen/picked gets a chance to notice again.

The chance of success will be your AG, appropriate skill and current conditions.
The chance to notice will be your PE, appropriate skill and current conditions.


So there.

Dave Chase

I agree that they are great ideas...however they arent really practical for a MMO. Remember that gamesas needs to make money and its gonna cost a lot to even get it all up and running. They need subscribers. What you are suggesting would be fun for a few for awhile but the general populace would get fed up and go back to wow. I would just because of the pvp. I would love to see a single player or a smaller multiplayer game with these ideas though.

Indeed and much of it is far too specific and not fun for most players. I'm all for limiting your playerbase but what you describe would not allow for much of a budget at all as it would have a tiny player base.


I'm all for recapturing Fallout 1, 2, and Tactics but what you are suggesting is going way farther than they did, to the point of trying to be a simulation rather than a game. Yes, some people would find a game where you have to eat, sleep, drink, relieve yourself regularly, and heal in realistic time frames fun but not everyone.


This I agree with. It needs to be a Fallout MMO, not a Fallout themed generic MMO to compete with the Warcraft themed generic MMO.


1) You don't need fixed prices to prevent ridiculous prices, look at EVE for a game with a completely player driven market works.
2) Agreed, there should be full PvP servers and voluntary only PvP servers.
3) Not quite, if you've ever played 80s and early 90s RPGs then you know how this works. No automatically generated map is crap and it's something that game developers realized long ago was crap which is why they don't make you draw your own damn map anymore. It's added pointless tedium. I'm all for having to explore to "create" your map, in other words I'm all for Fog of War and being able to make notes on the map.


In my experience, "winning" in an online game is achieved through becoming the most powerful group in the game and destroying your competition. Some games measure guild's strength through experience and PvP win-loss ratios, others through how much territory they control (10Six, now Planet Visitor), others through how much money and resources they control, and others through some other combination of things. Part of what makes games fun is that you can and do lose sometimes, they're boring if you can't. Yes, griefers should be punished but if you get killed, they loot your corpse dry, and you run back at them to try and kill them repeatedly, they aren't being a griefer, you're being an idiot.

You do not get a pip-boy: That's fine but the player will need a HUD and menu system. The PIPBoy was basically a fancy way of integrating it into the game so it felt more natural so if that's what must be done, that's what should be done. Don't get me wrong, I agree that it would be somewhat stupid and against the setting but this is a game first and foremost and gameplay should be the first consideration.

No Global or Zone chat/talk: This would be completely pointless and only damage the game. For RPing I agree that these zones shouldn't be used but not everyone who plays RPGs online are RPing and they would simply use an external voicechat or messenger program (like XFire) to fill in for the missing feature. If there is to be a RP server then this would be fine but you still need to allow for PMing for convenience.

No rankings: I'm generally okay with this, though "guild standings" of some sort (area controlled, population in area) on the V13 website might be fine.

No "threat" viewing / No viewing other player's gear or inventory: The "Awareness" perk served this purpose and I have no problem with it's return. I do think that you should be able to check what equipment other players have equipped in order to prevent punishing those who don't have the most amazing computers ever made. Pickpocketing could work in a variety of ways so it could allow you to see another player's entire inventory or not.

No viewing group associations: I like the idea and am all for it, though I think that it will need to be more than certain colors of clothing (branded gear of some sort would be ideal). I can see that as being a pain with the number of guilds that will most likely pop up so if you could simply turn it on or off so that you choose when people can see that you are associated with a group, that would be fine.

No fixed prices on items: Agreed and partially addressed above, though I'm not for your method of doing this as it's not a true player based economy.

Slot-based Inventory: With full looting enabled I see no problem with allowing players to carry around as much as they want as the risk would be in getting killed and looted. This is far too much of a simulation idea, this is a game, not real life. Realistic/small inventory sizes svck because it ends up forcing players to do a lot of moving back and forth. It also would be damaging to a player based economy as it would make the contributions of looted items to it even more minimal and thus force more people into crafting (which could be fine if crafting was actually fun). Limited inventories are fine, but they should be decided based on the gameplay (flow and pacing), not what's realistic.

No world Map: Addressed this above, make it like most RTS games minimaps or Fallout's world map. Drawing maps is tedious and not fun, it only damages the game.

Bounty Hunting: Again, this is not reality, this is a game. It needs to be a system which allows for players to hunt others realistically amongst thousands of users. Having descriptions or pictures just doesn't work in games due to the limitations of graphics and the fact that players will look alike. This is cool on RP servers where you can describe how they act and so on but not for regular gameplay.

Weather: Sure it's nice to have but it's hardly vital. It's damn near the bottom of the list of things any game needs to have.

Basic Survival: Stamina in most games is not fun. Is it fun in TES games to have to take frequent breaks because running from point A to point B drained your stamina? No it isn't. Realism should not be the goal but I agree that survival should be implemented in some way. Fallout did a good job with food and water by having the player make a roll against their outdoorsman skill periodically and be punished if they didn't have the resource needed. I'm all for making the outdoorsman skill useful but realistic survival is not the right route.

Skill Balance: I agree that non-combat skills need to be equally useful and fun. I also think that they are probably going to have to rework many of the skills which will involve combining them in order to achieve this goal.

Full PvP: I'd modify the EVE model to fit Fallout as it prevents people from being griefers and allows people to stay in safe areas if they so choose, which will limit their gameplay options. When a player dies there should be a chance that they loose equipment and that equipment isn't like it is in most MMOs (raids and crap to get magical stuff should not exist). I'm fine with an arena, in fact I'd love to see a Thunderdome like arena. I agree that CTF is stupid as hell for MMORPGs.

Level-scaled PvP Looting: No. Full looting should be available with bounties and guilds being the way to deal with people who are bad about it. Towns with organized police should have the police attack people who kill others on a first shot basis (whoever shoots first is considered the aggressor and the only one punishable).

Capturing other Players: No. Taking control away from players is not fun. Again, this is more suited to a RP server.

All NPCs can be killed: Agreed but again, an EVE like system of police would prevent griefers from being a problem.

There should be ONE server with a "hardcoe" Fallout setting: There should be a RP server to start with and, depending on how they deal with PvP, a Full PvP and limited PvP server in addition to the RP server (which would be Full PvP).

I agree and gamesas should learn from all of the past MMOs, used what works and drop what did not work.



I disagree, I think we should start off as humans and let the world mold us. If we want to remain human, we strive for the individualism by being careful and carrying the necessary equipment to defeat or mitigate death, severe injury, and NBC mutation. I also agree that we should have a Pip-boy as a clever way to bring up game and character options.



Although people can probably role play in this world more so than other current MMOs, not everyone wants to role play. It would be cool to have bulletin boards, in person, or revitalized areas with computers as a way to communicate. Granted as a whole, the world is not longer connected via the Internet. However I can not argue that the Enclave or Brotherhood of Steel has some sort of Intranet that they can communicate through. This also can be a means to generate player character money by allow players to revitalized the infrastructure - that way they can profit, war over the infrastructure, and make the world more dynamic - you never know what ownership will change or communications goes down adding the the chaos.



I believe Factions (guilds can award ranks). And PvE should award karma for rankings. Everything else is word of mouth or meta-gaming for the player and will not be visible to other players



I agree to a certain point. Anything in plain site is up for viewing and if your character knows the equipment and/or customization, it will show the stats. If not, no meta-gaming for the viewer. I agree that we should not look the same or we should have uniformity in Faction Guilds if that is a group decision. I do believe that if you view someone besides things in plain site, the viewing option can tell you what current mood the other player\NPC is in (or by voice you can tell if they forget to set the mood setting) and if they have a good charisma (or similar trait) then you can choose whether or not this will have an impact with your social interaction with this player.



Things only in plain site or you can see on a person. An item will have a concealed percentage. It will be a perception vs concealed percentage. Depending on your knowledge base, the detection will either tell you what the item is or state that something like, there is a sub-machine gun under their jacket or whatever



I think that may still be too meta-gaming. How about, he is as tall as you (which you know you stand at 6'2") and he looks to be a wired old man? He has white hair but he is as energetic as a mongoose fighting a cobra



I agree and the more knowledge and perception you have, the more description you will receive.



I agree - although perception will improve the barter skill by observing the quality of item being sold. The barter skill allows you to barter effectively and lets you know how much an item should be worth. Perception is used to detect flaws. Speech and etc will go into your final calculation



I agree and you can get more slots depending on the equipment you wear (armor) or carry (micronization\etc).



PvE should have a bank or they can store it in their homes - banks are not fully trusted. PvP should have access to a bank, however Banks in the Fallout world are not as trustworthy or secure as they are in our world. There is not limit to how much money a player can store in a bank, however remember there is no FDIC or a law enforcement branch that will investigate embezzlement. I agree about secret stashes and vaults\chests\safes with varying degrees of toughness and traps. And if you are part of a Faction Guild, more extra security for your items.

Who in the heck in their right mind store their money in a player vault - ZERO?! So player banks will not work.




I believe we should start out with a world map with all of the world cities and what cities were confirmed hits. The map is dynamic and we can expand out to view the world or we can focus down to view a city, and fortification. As we adventure, the map will adjust itself, flag PvE areas, remove cities no longer there, rename cities that have changed their name, add new cities, and allow the player to flag and note locations. If a PvP group finds a nuke and nukes a PvP\PW city, when you visit the site, the Pip-Boy will auto remove it or you can make the change yourself if you heard it from word of mouth (like you stated). This includes terrain as well. Perhaps so many nukes hit Michigan that there is no longer a Great Lake there and you map will adjust??! The world map is to expand to other countries for world scalability. I do not believe that we should be accountable to draw our own maps but I do believe that we should not have full view of the map when we first start. In fact, the starting full map with flags you receive is only of your vault. Everywhere else, you will need to adventure.



This still can happen with my map system since you are not given a detailed map of the Fallout world. You start with a map that was created during the war which included the pre-war cities and confirmed hits on those cities and surrounding areas by NBC weapons.



Sounds good




I agree ranging from non-threatening storms to storms that could cause injury or death. Huge ground striking lightning storms caused by the effects of war that could injure or kill the player, Tornadoes, dust storms, and radioactive dust storms. Also include day and night.



Since basic survival is a huge part of Fallout, I agree. Also, please stay away from an elaborate system? If you have a canteen, you are unaffected by thirst - can be filled along the way (but be warned - Not all drinking water is healthy). You can purchase tools to either make the water drinkable or avoid it all together. Same with food and you can hunt to refill your stores but you need the survival skill and some salt to replenish them or you need to kill everyday. While some areas may be plentiful, others will not or will be off limits. As for weather, only freak or precarious weather should be addressed. For example, in a blizzard one should either wear power armor (if need be - customized) or Arctic clothing in order to survive. Or if it is radioactive dust storm, either power armor or NBC suit will protect you. Or perhaps you have mutated or have been changed that you will no longer have to worry about weather, radiation, or sustenance




Should be broken down to tracking and The World svcks - Survival.



Nope, either Full PvP\PvE servers, or PvP Instance areas (load on server and prefer not to have), or a switch of some kind (control panel or joining a Faction Guild or areas that automatically become PvP zones - no instance). The servers have to be high speed. low drag, and scalable regardless of the option is used.

You have to appeal to the PvE crowd and there has to be an area where the PvPers can prepare for PvP by sweating and building up wealth or retire.

It would be nice to have a full PvP server but it will not work and eat into potential income for gamesas.

So far, it seems the PvEers out number us which would be a huge profit loss for gamesas.





Sure, what about player ran ones?



In PvP, it is open season on all PvPers



Well, if we are able to play in PvE towns because of switch method, then yes the town guards are more likely to get killed or flee. If not, the towns\fortifications will be PvP owned and operated. If there are NPCs, they will be either robots or guards in armor ordered to focus fire on pre-order targets. The rest may be players repelling your assault



I agree except you get a perception roll and more rolls if you choose certain skills. Or you may have mutated to be immune to poison and the merchant does not know - what a lovely surprise for them - especially if they fake being wounded or dead!




I disagree and here is why.

1) You chose to be in PvP (again you have to have PvE or the game will die because of reduced profits).

2) You can not play PvP until a certain level. I mean come on what is the use of a 1st level character going up against a FFA high level player? That is if they can damage or hit them - skill vs skill, equipment vs equipment.

3) You prepare by earning\stealing\killing for money\equipment. You have spares and you have spare lives which you need to purchase. No spare lives, you are dead dead dead - start over. No spare equipment, I hope you have friends or means to recover equipment. As you progress, you may have been mutated or changed into a cyborg or robot which gives you immunities, new problems, and out with the old problems.

4) You may be a black belt in Karate and shoot a flea in the ass with a Barret 50 caliber sniper rifle up to a mile a way. However all that needs to happen is either some punk kid or a kid that has no idea what a gun truly does catches you with your guard down and BAMMO - you are dead. Granted, most likely in this world you not be caught off guard but it is always possible.

Hmm, how about a fatigue system. You must rest at a certain time (does not take a lot of time to rest). If you don't, you start to be effected with sleep deprivation unless you use a synthetic means of staying awake. However, eventually it will catch up with you with a nasty fall off.

Also, how about this too. Equipment is damage during combat. If you melt the player, there is a good chance there is nothing left to salvage. Now if you hit the player in the head with a sniper shot - maybe only the protective head gear (if any) is unusable. And of course normal wear and tear on equipment.





Maybe in PvE but it may not work in PvP unless you can carry the body in one of your slots because you knocked them out. Once you get to your prison or whatever, you can wake them up or if they were unconscious due to wounds, you can heal them inside their cell until they are awake. When they are unconscious, they are open to full looting. If you are a master rogue type, perhaps you hid a pick somewhere, you can pick the lock and perhaps either take someone out for equipment or get your items back and sneak out or I guess if you are crazy, engage the enemy in a fire fight, sabotage stuff, etc.

If the group develops good role playing faith, perhaps the player will just play along?

If not, expect more suicidal methods and noncooperation - the guys has 10 pounds of TnT and blows you all up as you get closer causing all of you to rez or be dead if you do not have a rez service.





In the best interest of a dynamic world, all PvP NPCs will be permanently killed. If we are mixing with PvE, then primary PVE (quest) toons can only be killed once in so many hours that way PvEers will not have to worry about PvPers grieving players and give PvEers a chance to complete their quests.



PvP should be hard core FFA with Full Looting and ways to prepare for a soul transfer or you choose to transfer into a wraith - last ditch effort to stay alive and change. Of course, this may totally change the game for you.



Better yet, each country plays in their country on the Fallout world map and when we finally are able to leave our country, then we either form alliances or we run into the above problem.



I disagree, I believe there should be an soul essence transfer system (you Faction Guild can own one and/or paid service) that can transfer your soul from your frag to a body you have on backup - most likely what you were before. Once you run out of "lives", you are dead - reroll

I am sure that you are asking why lives? Why not, if you can die so fast don't you feel you should have a chance? I mean think about, you are hit by a Faction Guilds - 20 Vindicator Mini-guns through focus fire - what do think your chances of surviving that are if you can not hit the deck or jump behind a very sturdy barrier - Yep very very low? And sorry, this is the only method of rezz and it most certainly will take too long to come back to enter the re-engage (there is always an exception). Also remember in Fallout 1 and 2, we kept finding top secret military hardware\bases. Let alone the GECK, come on - that is a very powerful technological item - why not soul essence transfers?

This world is a clash of low to high tech equipment - hi-tech being rare to find and make.

As for other than fight options, sure anyone can retreat (RUN!) or tactical retreat (sending rounds down range as they retreat) or use diplomacy (RP)

Full PvP has always been screwed up. The idea is that you can gain great rewards, but lose equipment. This causes problems on games that are meant to appeal to all. Heres a solution to full PvP. PvP injuries, if you lose you gain hours of a significant PvP injury. If you mug another player in a town you earn bad rep with the town(ignoring seen rules in this example). If you mug people outside of the town your Raider Guild gain bad rep. These long term injuries will stifle and slow down mindless PvP constant mugging.

When I made the Bounty Hunter, prison, slave idea there were less emphasize elements. This would not be applicable to players who do not want to delve into this level of gaming. Throughout the game world there are events/quests/actions that players can participate in that would delve them deeper into a more robust and punishment filled game. If players actively attack towns then they are willingly allowing themselves the punishment to be arrested. If they commit actions against Player Driven objects(homes, towns...) then they allow themselves to have Bounties placed on them. If players participate in rescuing slaves(against other slaver PC or slaver Npc town) then they are open to be slaver caught.

I like the PvP loot scaling, but I also think it would be better to have the PvP bidding system. This would allow players to adjust their level of PvPness to what they feel comfortable with. Mixed with the long term injuries then people will participate, but won't waste time ganking lowbies.

Other content. Most important I would like to see Fallout MMO RPG be more than a Combat Simulators like WoW, WAR, Conan, EQ, Flyff..... I would really like to see more content in other areas of interest. Crafting in said games are just extensions of the Combat Simulator. What can smiths craft? armour & weapons. Engineers, Enchanters, Jewelers, potions all related to killing. How about content like racing, bands, town buiding content. Where players can actually help improve towns.

Also I would like to see a less Gear centric game. I would like to see talents chosen to emphasize gear you have or lack of gear. Different gear would determine your role. Heavy armours(BoS) would be best suited for large scale conflict while lighter armours would allow you to move faster and be more appropriate to scouting. While wearing little(cloths) would be for diplomacy and social interaction.

You know, I'm a huge Fallout fan. I love the series. I've even tried to get my friends to play Fallout PnP. But if the game is like that? I will not play it. Period. That game would be literally no fun at all.

I agree with Chaotic Law. Though I do like the OP's imagination and drive for the game, the few things that were a bit too real life can make the game be too hard or start to make it boring such as the full PVP thing.

With the maps, I think it should kind of be like the Age of Empires games. How when you start out in a scenario your map is black, but as you progress on, your map updates. Or better yet, like the map in Morrowind, how you have an outline of the land, but its all blank since you don't know where anything is, but you can get people to mark places and areas on your map.

Full pvp with full loot and large grups zerging and ruin the gaming experience is something i hope i wont see in fallout.Darkfall atm. is a big mess of big guilds zerging all ,loot them,grief them,shit on them ,raqe them etc ..etc and this svck balls.The game shuld be highly solo friendly in pvp/pve.Warhamer and wow is what you may want with big teams and big raids.To be forced to lick some big guild lider ass in order to be succesfull in pvp/pve becouse u cant make anithing good alone becouse the system wont let you is very bad thing to have in fallout mmo.

I am the Formless in all forms.Strenght si the only measure ,all things can be resolved with violence and blood share.