My three biggest memories from Daggerfall, and no don't worry this isn't going to be a reminiscing on the "good old days" thread, were discovering the Thieves Guild existed, also discovering the Dark Brotherhood and finding out you could become a Vampire/Werewolf. The enjoyment of these discoveries are easily my most prominent memories of the game. Therefore i would go as far to say they are the peak of the enjoyment I had in the experience.

No one told you this was possible, at least i didn't see it anywhere, if the player was informed then it was subtle. What made it so much fun was the surprise of finding out. Books sometimes held the information, which made you scourer the libraries.
I wouldn't be surprised to learn there are still secrets undiscovered in Daggerfall. I can't tell you how long i looked for dragons.

The surprise. I think i saw a Dev from the Beth team mention the book 'The Art Of Game Design by Jesse Schell'. This book is great and for an indie game developer like myself it is invaluable. It describes 100 lenses to view your game through. The reason for the "lenses" (put simply) is to try and see your game under a different light, to make sure it combines the elements that make games great and fun. "Lens 2" is, you guessed it, "The Lens Of Surprise".

Now, and this is strictly IMO obviously, Oblivion lacked this surprise. You may say that i knew the game had these elements already, a first time player wouldn't know this and that would be true. However, it also told you a lot of these secrets in the loading menus and through listening to NPC dialog, which was very limited and repeated often. Personally I found that to be a bit counter productive because any surprise(fun) that could be gleamed from someone reading these loading menu's was far in-superior to the surprise gleamed from discovering it in game.

Also the Thieves guild was practically shoved in your face as soon as you walked into the Imperial City and was open to anyone who got arrested, no matter the crime, and The Dark Brotherhood was an easy one kill invite. Both were mentioned in the loading screens. You can see where i'm going with this.

I just hope Bethesda has kept the secrets of Skyrim locked up tight for us to pry open for ourselves. Because although a lot of you don't understand why games are fun, trust me that a good chunk of it is surprise. Especially in the TES series.

Yes, I agree with you on this subject without a doubt. Part of Daggerfall's charms were me discovering all the things that I could do, and seeing the seemingly boundless potential. Oblivion had so much exposure from story to gameplay elements, that when you finally got around to playing that procedurally generated land (that was also nothing quite so alien feeling as we had become accustomed to with Morrowind) that it didn't have much to go on outside of finishing the main quest and side quests.

I've personally debated about giving myself a media blackout for Skyrim just as a preventative measure until release.

I totally agree with what you're saying. I wish I could not read info on Skyrim or look at vids, but I just can't do it. Hopefully Bethesda won't reveal too much and here's to hoping secrets won't be revealed in the loading screen either, maybe just regular gameplay tips.

Ha yeah i have also considered a blackout, unfortunately i enjoy hearing about the game so much. The "exposure to gameplay elements" yeah that is a good of putting it. In a way why bother when you already know.

I don't really think a blackout is necessary though. I doesn't take too much imagination to imagine what the gameplay elements will be in Skyrim, especially if you've played other TES games. Where Beth seems to be dropping the ball is discovering how these are implemented.

The thieves guild was still a surprise for me in Oblivion. I think you're underestimating just how massive and Elder Scrolls game feels to someone playing for the first time. I had no clue what was going on, and the loading screens really didn't do all that much to take away the enjoyment of surprises. I kind of appreciated it later on too, as I probably wouldn't have made an 'evil' character to join the dark brotherhood if I hadn't heard about it in game in a couple of places. That said, it was still a bit of a shock when a Speaker of the Black Hand showed up in my Bravil house.

Those surprises are caused by not being as familiar with the series' lore and setting as I am now. I'm confident there will still be new things that take me off guard at first in Skyrim, but they won't be these.
These will still be the surprises people new to the series encounter and fall in love with.

That's how I felt with Morrowind. When you got off the boat and were released, the world was a mystery. It felt more enjoyable because I actually had to search to find out information. It felt like an adventure. For example, the Morag Tong. It was incredibly hard to find them. It really felt like an achievement to have found them. They were in the game's lore, but I do not recall anyone in the game actually saying where they were located. Bethesda did a really good job connecting the lore to the actual game.

Whereas in Oblivion, everyone had a pretty good idea how to join the Dark Brotherhood. And how would they even know that? It's not like the DB spread the rumors, because it wouldn't benefit them. And if anyone who left the DB talked, them and everyone they talked to would die. Compared to Morrowind, there really were not any secrets in Oblivion, in any way.

That is really good to hear Shadrack; I had wondered if anyone was still surprised. Nice to know Oblivion still had that magic for some people. Maybe i'm just too old :wink_smile:

I agree entirely, there is more to exploration than simply looking for caves.

Yeah I felt the same buzz from Morrowind too. I suppose everyone talking about the 'Secret Guilds' kinda took a lot away from there magic for me. NPC's killed people and by that logic half the population would be in the Dark Brotherhood. It just didn't make sense, which pulled me out of the experience. Not a good thing in these types of games.

even tough i only played oblivion i understand what you mean. I Litterally started the game and it said: IF Y0U CONTR4CTZ PORPHYRIC HEMOPHILLIA HURRY AND GO PRAY BEFORE YOU TURN INTO A V4MPZIRE! ....... And i just overheard some people saying: IF YOU MURD3R SOM3ON3 THE DARK BROTHERHOOD GONNA INVITE YOU TO JOIN THEM WHEN U SL33P! ... No offense to oblivion or TES but the loading screens and people automaticcaly knowing about the DB was annoying.

As far as I know in Daggerfall you can ask about every faction in the game, including the thieves guild and the dark brotherhood. Not many people would know anything though.

And I found the thieves guild in Oblivion done well, at least better then in Morrowind, where when you enter the guildhall they literally say "Welcome to the Thieves Guild, wanna join?" :facepalm:
In Oblivion you knew about the Gray Fox and the guild, but figuring out how to join was much harder. You're right about the Dark Brotherhood, and how everybody knew how to join though.
And it was good to know that Porhyric Hemophilia is vampirsim...

About Skyrim, we're not exactly flooded with information here either, there are definitely going to be secrets there. But not all of them will become a secret for long, but that's not Bethesda's fault but more like the Internet's. In this day of age, looking up things is much easier, and it's really hard to talk about new games without hearing spoilers...

In this day and age, I'd say it's pretty much impossible for anything in a game to truly be kept secret, simply because any information you try to keep hidden is likely to become readily available on the internet, if I want to find the location of any hidden item in a past Elder Scrolls game, I can probably find it on UESP. Not that this means you shouldn't try to put secrets in your game, just that if people want to find such information, they can find it. Myself, I prefer not to rely on such things unless I really have no clue what to do. But that generally did not happen in past Elder Scrolls games, especially since the "secrets" in past games were the kind of thing that you can reasonably expect to find if you take the time to explore, not like in some games where you really have to wonder how anyone is expected to figure it out without a guide because you have to do some needlessly abstract thing that you'd never think to do unless you just try random, illogical things just to see if there's some secret hidden somewhere.

Mostly, what I want is to see the return of artifacts hidden throughout the gameworld, I don't need the game to try to hide quests from me, but I like to find a unique artifact hidden in a dungeon while exploring, and Oblivion had VERY few of these things, there were a few unique items hidden in some places, I seem to recall (Fingleam, for example.) But usually the only way to get unique items was by doing quests.



I have to agree, that never made much sense to me. Not only is the Thieves Guild an illegal organization, in Morrowind, it also had a competitor that has no qualms at all with murderer and is not at all pleased with a foreigg organization offering competition (Namely, the Commona Tong.) you'd think in such a position, they'd at least try to keep their business secret. Yet both criminal organizations in Oblivion put more effort into the matter than the Thieves Guild in Morrowind did.

Agree.
They should remove those tips from loading screens.
Also, I'm pretty much satisfied about what they revealed to us by now.
Only thing that I would like to actually be revealed is about character creation and give us some more info about skills and perks since we will find out about them as soon as we turn the game on, but will also give us some material to chew on and have fun with while we wait for the game.
Everything story related should be kept a secret since this current info is enough.
Also, they could talk about some new mechanics and stuff, but nothing too big and revealing.
And yeah, only spoiling stuff that I might support actually is that they confirm guilds, lychantrophy, vampirism and becoming a lich.
That is nothing new to us by now, but they should reveal only if they will be in or not and nothing more.

Agreed the actually missions for the Thieves guild were done well. However finding them after being locked up for mass murder only to discover they don't condone murder was a bit strange. The Morrowind thieves guild was like that and so was Daggerfall, however you had to know the right house to look in which wasn't easy when dealing with a game on this scale. I don't know if knowing that Porhyric Hemophilia is vampirism is good, i like the surprise element of it myself, but i do think the game should tell you a lot more clearly that you've got a disease and maybe a doctor could tell you it could lead to vamprism.

This thread is mainly about discussing in game elements revealed to the player in game. Yes if you want to look something up online you can find the info, that is not really relevant to this discussion. I don't think Bethesda reveal too much before the game is released it is more about telling us everything in game.



You don't have to look online or buy guides. Like using cheats you are only cheating yourself :wink_smile:

Some of us have been using the Internet for a long time and know when not to look at Information that might be counter productive to our goal

Yes it isn't hard to add more items hidden in little corners but i was thinking about larger gameplay elements as opposed to loot gathering. Not saying loot gathering is a small part of TES.




Yeah those kind of information releases are always fun, you don't need the Charater Creation process to be a surprise necessarily

I don't know. The thing that really bugged me in both Morrowind and Oblivion was that it was too easy to tell when you got a disease (Morrowind especially, since it was right on the HUD). I like the idea of diseases getting worse over time and being much more pronounced in effect (eg, random coughing that alerts enemies, harsh fatigue/stat drains, etc), but not being outright told what you have in your character sheet, and what exactly they're doing. It'd be awesome if you're dungeon diving, you start feeling weak (minor strength and fatigue drain setting in), and an unexpected cough alerts nearby enemies to you. Nothing to put you in great peril, just the kind of an "Oh crap..." moment that leads to interesting stories.

In that light, diseases like porphyric hemophilia and sanies lupinus would go by practically unnoticed until it's too late, as they are supposed to according to lore. They can be cured easilly within the first 3 days, but the effects are so minor, you practically wouldn't know you have it. You'd actually have to think, "Hey, I just fought a vampire/werewolf. Maybe I should go get a Cure Disease potion as a precaution," instead of being told You have contracted the Vampire/Werewolf disease the second you get infected. A player can then risk continuing on, thinking they're fine (and maybe they are), or they can turn back and get a cure just to be extra safe.

I definitely prefer the possibility of accidentally getting vampirism or lycanthropy... they are curable, after all, so if you really don't want it, you can get rid of it. But those unexpected twists (maybe you weren't fine after all..) add so much to the experience, and your character's story is made more interesting for it no matter what you decide to do afterward. Things like that are what lead to character growth, and that's a corner stone of good story-telling.

I'm totally with you. It would make things very interesting. And like you said, if you've just fought vampires or werewolves, it might be a good idea to take a potion (if you don't want the disease, that is).

Everyone was so http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfOK_Xkibn4 in Oblivion.

I enjoyed the way a lot of Master Trainers were hinted at in certain skill books with only a very few being specifically singled out for you.

I kinda like this idea. The need to go to a healer for diagnosis or having some relevant associated skill (like alchemy or restoration) would be nice.

Agreed. In game tips should be just that, tips. Not spoilers! (Tip= Hit F4 to open/do "whatever" and the like.)

your right. but there is one thing i can't wait , dont matter the surprise ruining! the argonians,a dwemer dungeon and a dwemer towers! i cant wait to see these things...

at one angle i want to just know everything...but i know that if we wait and we do get surprised it will be much funner. i agree with this man.

I hope that the loading screens only show like lore trivia or something like that.
things to the tune of:

"These mountains are tall!"
"Dragons are scary and big!"
"Morrowind was taken over by Argonians!"

etc.

except factual information instead of silly things thought up on the spot.

Maybe instead of load screens that tell you about the guilds or NPC's droning on and on about if you murder someone the Dark Brotherhood will ask you to join they can use the Radiant Story to help out. Supposedly it will help tailor some quests geared to your playstyle. Now I don't expect Radiant Story to be some great thing, but does it seem too much that if you go around stealing stuff at some point Radiant Story could set up a quest that leads you to the guild? Same goes for if you go around murdering people. Instead of a Dark Brotherhood agent appearing after you sleep, RS could send someone your way and say, "Hey you. I got a job you might be interested in. And if you perform well we might have some more work for you." They send you to kill someone and you are on your way to becoming a member.

Just a thought.

Edit: Maybe for the thieves guild, after you steal enough stuff (a set value like 100 or 200 gold worth of items) someone would come up to you and say, "I caught you red handed, thief!" (get it, because of the red hand next to the item in your inventory. I crack myself up :rofl: ) He/she continues, "Ha! You should have seen the look on your face. You know, I could introduce you to some friends of mine where you can dump that hot merchandise and make a tidy profit. You interested?"

I've decided not to read any more info posts. The only thnig I will want to see is just more in-game footage during E3 I bet.

I approve of this topic, tell us things about basic gameplay features such as combat system, how you use magic (not specific types of magic here we just need to see ice and fire) tell us how to sneak, tell us that we need to eat or we will die. don't tell us much more, if we can do woodcutting or cooking, thats something we should just discover.

Less words to explain the same thing i agree with you, we all want to know everything but deep down inside we rather want to "find it out" than be told about it.

Nice idea regarding the DB! I would prefer it if the loading screens just displayed lore or cool concept art. Although you could argue the concept art would take you out of the experience.




Well i approve of you approving this topic. :wink_smile:

Yes deep down everyone does want to discover things on their own. When i make a game or do anything creative i try not to tell people all about it first, otherwise whats the point in them playing it. If they have an imagination then they have already had half the experience.