Hey everyone

So apparently, Kellogg was ordered not to reactivate life support systems in Vault 111, leading to the deaths of all but you, your spouse (whose death was unrelated to that) and your son. My question is, do we know who it was that did that? And the rationale? Because I think Kellogg doing it on his own makes much more sense.

Why? Because even if the Institute is as evil as some people think it is, I'd like to think they are at least competent about it, and killing off Vault 111's people makes no sense from any kind of pragmatic villainy. Sure, they have a "spare" in the Sole Survivor, but think about it, that assumes that Shaun's DNA and those closest to it was usable. It was, but they weren't sure of it at the time. If he didn't work, they were screwed, because rather than keep everyone in stasis, and have a wide variety of subjects, they elected to kill everyone but one of the two people who would even notice the child's absence and have reason to go looking for them.

Hell, even if Shaun was compatible, why do it? It's not like there's really any gain, especially because they leave a witness in the form of their backup, so it couldn't have been for complete anonymity. And again, they'd have a wider resource pool, and rather than have every Synth be a quasi grandchild of yours, they could have had a variety of DNA to work with. Not only would that expand the experiment by letting them try and find an optimal DNA base to start with, but it would help eliminate the risk of a defect in their base ruining the entire batch (the same reason you shouldn't use one strand of seed in agriculture) and it could have potentially led the way to create Synths that would have the ability to procreate, as it could eliminate the risk of defects due to DNA being too similar. Gen-3 Synths are unfeasible for long-term surveillance so the next logical step would be to have Gen-4 Synths that could age and potentially have children. The idea of "natural" Synths is something I find fascinating.

No we don't. Aside from the apparent policy of "Leave no witnesses" which doesn't make any sense in this case since they could have just thrown them back on ice and nobody would have been the wiser.

Its never explained, and just serves as a "Lulz evilz" moment for The Institute. Especially because, as you said, it doesn't make any sense from a practical standpoint to eliminate the other residents at all.

I'm not sure why they didn't just make it a uncontrollable systems failure or an accident of some sort. It would fit neatly with the general theme of "The Institute doesn't always realize the harm they do."

They killed them because they didn't need them, and the Institute is largely full of scientists who place pragmatic things like "unnecessary amount of data" before the value of human lives.

Its the same reason they kept doing FEV experiment for literally decades after the head researcher of the FEV project said they weren't getting any results, and were unlikely to ever get results.

They don't want synths to be able to do that though. That basically just signing your own death warrant and asking for a robo-apocalypse.

Coincidentally, there's never a reason given for that either.

During Dangerous Minds, you can activate any of the cryo-pods unrelated to Shaun and Kellogg will think to himself something like "Never was sure why we didn't just refreeze the rest of them. I guess the old man just didn't want so many loose ends. Too bad he left alive the one person he shouldn't have."

I'm not sure the emphasis on genetic diversity applies to synthetic-organics in the same way it does for things like seeds or agriculture in general. I think they just needed a pure strain of DNA to base the synths off of - any hereditary diseases or "bad genes" are probably irrelevant for whatever the Institute did with the DNA. And in that case, keeping a backup that's as close to their original specimen as possible is probably so that any progress they made with the infant's DNA isn't completely wasted, should the baby fail somehow. I mean, for all we know they used Father's DNA as a template to create synthetic gorillas, so I don't think they were concerned about genetic disorders or anything like that. Besides, if they had access to vault records they probably had access to the health records of the vault dwellers too. We might have only filled out a SPECIAL sheet when we were admitted into the vault, but I assume that's because either our spouse or the military already forwarded most of our relevant data to Vault 111 when we were admitted.

Mankind Redefined

The FEV Research Notes you can find in the lab imply that super mutants were somehow related to the Institute's research on synthetic organics. The holotape dated in 2224 talks about how the research is stagnating because of the same reason across all specimens: too much exposure to radiation. Which is coincidentally the same reason they couldn't use the DNA from themselves or ordinary wastelanders to make synths, and instead stole a Pre-War baby in 2227.

I don't think having more research material constitutes "unnecessary amount of data." If anything, they needed more data than what Shaun and you could provide. Proper experimentation requires variables. There was no guarantee of results with Shaun, so killing off the entire batch before the experiment even started is unbelievably stupid.

As for reproductive Synths, they don't want it now, but I can't imagine that everybody involved in the project feels that way. If nothing else, they should have interest in seeing if it's possible. Try it with two Synths, try it with male human female Synth, try it with female human and male Synth. Get the data, and then destroy the test subjects. It would only be a death warrant if they mass produced them without thinking.

Yes, so it explains the initial push into looking into the FEV as a branch of the Synth program, but not why it was continued despite the Synthetic Organic program being spun off from Bioscience and despite the FEV Lab's repeated reports that nothing was coming of the research.

Aside from just dipping people for [censored] and giggles its never explained. Nor why they were releasing the newly created mutants on the surface.

They knew what they needed before they even got in the Vault, all the data necessary had already been obtained from decades of work using the FEV. They just needed the actual specimen to complete the process, and a backup in case the primary subject died for some reason.

The plan for synths is to be the ultimate slave workforce. I doubt anyone has considered giving them the ability to self produce given how much of a massive risk that would be.

An untested hypothesis, nothing more. They only knew what didn't work before. Until they had a fully functional, third generation Synth, they couldn't know what worked.

Kellog's actions in killing Nora/Nate were pretty dumb as well.

I mean in one fell swoop the guy reduced the number of back-ups potentially two (not counting the already dead residents of course) to just one. Kinda makes you wonder why the hell that guy is on the payroll to begin with if he has such a [censored] itchy trigger finger.

The Institute dumped their discarded Super Mutants into the Commonwealth because it was probably easier than just "terminating" them. Goodness knows they don't care what happens on the surface, so what's it to them to use it as a landfill for their failed experiments?

Pretty much everyone, including Kellogg, admits that was a mistake. And that he's a heartless, cruel bastard.

Here's a thought: the Institute did refreeze all of the Vault 111 residents in 2227, and Shaun only killed them when he released us in 2287 and they were no longer necessary. Kellogg says that the "old man" probably didn't want so many loose ends, and he refers to Father as the "old man" later in the Diamond City memory, although in fairness it could have been a different old man. And all of his monologues in Dangerous Minds seem to come from the perspective that Kellogg knows he's been killed by the vault dweller, and he's wondering if this was all a plot by the Institute - the fact that he speaks to us through Nick afterwards is probably even more evidence.

But its not though. Since the super-mutants constantly [censored] with Synth scav teams. Not to mention (later on) the Institute checkpoints. All they had to do was put a bullet in the mutants head before zapping them to the surface.

I mean, The Institute isn't completely self-sufficient. They do need to send up scav teams for raw materials, research supplies etc. regularly.

I just fired up a save and went through that quest again. We don't see them dying in the memory, just being all unfrozen and confused, but Kellogg's memory more specifically says "Wonder why we didn't just refreeze the rest of them, but we had our orders." So I'm still probably wrong.

Watch then longer and they start to suffocate.

Huh, I watched them all the way up until the whole memory reset. They were coughing, but so were we when we got out of the vault. Whatever, I'm wrong anyways.

I wonder if the destruction of Vault 111 is because they intended to steal the power of the place for the Institute. They mention they do that a lot and it's a big deal but it's not really ever SHOWN. Of course, we know the real reason they killed everyone in Vault 111 and the FEV experiments is to make the institute obvious villains.

You know, so three factions have someone to want to blow up.

There seems to be a lot of unexplained actions the Institute took that don't quite make sense. If by the time they're already kidnapping people when you're released why don't they just nab everyone in the Vault? Sure that teleporter takes up a lot of energy but all those frozen people would be perfect samples over a larger gene pool. You know a larger sample size would lead to better results down the line.

Then Kellogg is kept around because he gets things done, it's not until they make the Coursers where he begins to be expendable but by then he knows too much to be just tossed aside. And what is the Institute's goals anyways? A better mankind? A restored earth?? If you want us to like them give us reasons Beth.

Im thinking life support malfunctioned and slowly killed them. Kellogg didn't individually kill them they just died. I feel as if it was a mercy in a way. Those people would of been ill fit to survival. They were old already. While Nate/Nora are at peak health and youth and are capable of survival on their own

Pretty sure Bethesda didn't actually want us to like them, especially since the game itself addresses these questions: Kellogg wonders why they didn't refreeze everyone else, and pretty much everyone involved in the FEV project questions it's purpose. Seems Bethesda left those things deliberately vague, as they are wont to do.

Expand underground and never have to deal with surfacers again.

Its a http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhoWritesThisCrap: pointing out plot holes and gaps in logic in the context of your work doesn't make them go away. If your characters in-universe are self-referencing how illogical it is, you probably need to step back and reevaluate what you're writing.

Having Kellog say "Not sure why we didn't refreeze them" or the FEV Lab guy say "Why are we continuing this? It makes no sense!" Is an example of this. Bethesda knew the reasoning wasn't there, they knew they needed to explain it better, but they did it anyway.

The Institute's meant to be a fully joinable faction. So clearly they intended for some players to like them. If they were just supposed to be the Thalmor of Fallout 4, they wouldn't have made them a faction you could side with.

Then again, there could be reasons and we just can't ask about them because the new voiced questioning system doesn't lend itself to the deep conversations of old.

That still doesn't do any favors for the writing though.

I mean, maybe the Institute was continuing the research on the FEV to prevent an invasion from the Zetans and thus the annihilation of earth. But we'll never know.