Ok, if you're counting you get a point for the Arena/Daggerfall thing - but I believe there is written Lore on the subject too somewheres.

I would agree on the Alfiq matter - if you have read 'Hunting, Hunters, Hunted' by AFriend and raggidman you will see that the Alfiq are presented as being both fully sentient, magic-using and though unable to speak they have other ways to communicat. That's not classed as Lore but it might assist people to get a feel for the potential of the Alfiq. Though that is not fully revealed until the second part if you care to read it. The third part is still behind closed doors

Your bit here about the Crystals supports the concept that spell-creation requires Int - insofar as the Ayleid used their skills to create such crystals initially, and designed the crystals to propagate themselves. Spell-casting crystals do not form naturally or without the intervention of sophonts.

Essentially you would have to prove that the Imps cannot talk and that it is not merely that you do not have access to a way to learn their language in Daggerfall before making your claim there. As stated before there is written Lore on this and the old grey matter remembers reading about it as well as others making this assertion in other recent threads here.

I never said the Alfiq weren't sentient. I've never said they weren't intelligent. I've never said they couldn't use spells.

All I've ever beeping said about them was that they couldn't articulate human-like speech! And, to be ultra-super-duper precise, by this I mean the capacity to produce the phonemes and sounds needed to vocalize the words used by a language spoken by human beings. I expect them to be able to communicate through another form of language -- mewling, body language, sign language, telepathy, pheromones, I don't really care.

Not that I want to get involved in what is quickly becoming a personal argument, but I agree with Gez, and Gez can back up what he's saying with research. the Alfiq can understand human speech, can (presumaly) cast spells, and are highly intelligent- khajiit scorn normal 'housecats', while they treat the alfiq as equals. I would imagine that Alfiq could speak Ta'Agra, it's just that their bodies aren't designed to vocalise in a human manner- just in the beast manner that all native khajiit do. They are intelligent enough to learn and understand human speech, just physically incapable of doing so.

Just my two cents.

:facepalm:

Umm - I have been agreeing with Gez on the Alfiq side saying that (as Gez sez) Alfiq are fully sentient, civilised Khajiit - and I offered futher material in support of what Gez said in the previous post. What are you talking about Illusionary Nothing?

I disagreed with Gez about Imps - which are also sentient. Imps are able to talk in Daggerfall. Beth put in a qualifier around the start of the game that Imps were among the creatures that have their own language, but the player would not be able to learn it. Umm, Imps are not Khajiit, you understand this, right?

Illusionary Nothing, you might try reading for yourself what people have actually written before you criticise them. Well I am assuming you did not bother to read my post? <_< Or do you also have a problem with context?

? I'm sorry if I mistook what you were saying. I wasn't trying to put anyone down, I was just, as I said, offering what I felt about the alfiq. I have read your posts, but the conversation between you and Gez is somewhat difficult to decipher in points.

My apologies again for any misunderstandings, and I'd like to add once more that I was just offering an opinion about the alfiq.

I think the fact we have not seen the full plethora of forms in one game has been because the lore was not developed initially in arena/daggerfall and design decision like make the Khajiit have bent legs in morrowind to make them weird like everything else there and human legs in Oblivion. We really would have to have a game set in Elsweyr to really get a chance to see the extent of forms they can take. I am not sure why the tiger and house cat forms would be so hard for them to implement in the next game, just enough to show that there can be variations to the species. Probably many players from Oblivion (due to the lack of substantial lore) and possibly Morrowind may still not yet realize they can come in other forms besides humanoid which is sad!


I think the other guys have said enough on this, but I would like to point that that ORCS were once mer. You can read up on their lore for the full details. Perhaps that is what you were thinking of?


You have obviously never met my cats who you can talk to, yell out, throw things and yet they still will not get off the kitchen counter or stop scrathing the furniture while looking me in the eyes. Cats that actually understand and listen would be a godsend!

NP Illusionary Nothing - it was getting a bit complicated ...




Interesting take on the basic forms going according to the nature of the dominant race ... I like it, but I am afraid that when you look at all the other stuff that happened during the creation of Ob ... things pan out another way.

It was that old conundrum = get a few billion more turnover by:
- overloading cheap, flash graphics effects suitable for XBox/PS/Wii;
- reduce variety of in-game models to accomodate the above;
- reduce gameplay flexibility to accomodate same.

Or stay with a mainly PC-based format and have:
- double the area of play that Morrowind had;
- keep all the magnificent artwork and models that Morrowind introduced and add more;
- follow the Lore to date and build on it carefully, introducing new graphics and gameplay that accord with what is known and loved.

Guess what?

To be fair the AI adds something with real potential and the battle-system is improved ... and if they remove all the overdone and uneccessary SFX and are allowed to use a bit of imagination they can build something magnificent on that if they choose ... hey maybe even a clasic that goes on selling at a robust price fo rthe next 20yrs ...

Whether we get the real Khajjiit and Argonian deal for that matter will depend on ... you guess?

My grandad trained his cats to do everything you would expect of a dog ... it's how you handle them grimdeath - they are quite perceptive so bs does not work.

Re the Orcs? Try thinking they are still mer. The word is Orsimer. But the Imperials have been very busy burying all the Lore so that their Great Men can discover it! And that proves how great men are because the fool mer could not hold onto it in the first place?

On the other hand go to Summerset Isle ... or the Isle of the Psyjiics and they will have a different take on things

Ok, guys... It's a game.

Just to jump back extremely far in the thread, I noticed this.



This is just a minor confusion, TES3 Kajiit are indeed Suthay-raht, but this doesn't fit TES4 Kajiit description.

"Ohmes-raht: This was the form of the Khajiit NPCs in Daggerfall. Similar in size and shape to humans, but with light fur and a tail."

See, this fits the discription of a TES4 Kajiit much more. It just seems like they made them a bit furrier than TES2.

An Ohmes-raht's head is completely human-like. In Oblivion, they're completely feline. If you don't want them to be Suthay-raht like the Morrowind ones, just claim they are Suthay -- a bit less feline than Suthay-raht (overall posture, foot shape) but otherwise mostly the same.

Tis' true, I could see how that fits. Thankyou for clarifying. I hate accidentally giving out bad info. I must be some kind of fool to post things in the lore section I'm not 100% sure on.

The lore excuse is different tribes, but yes...I don't really like the furries in Morrowind and Oblivion either.

(I don't hate furries, but I think as a race in TES it's really cheesy and I preferred the original "humans with cat-like reflexes" one - I hope they return in some shape or form in TES V)

I agree that the bird-people lizard-people roach-people thing in fantasy is more endemic than the multitudes of -Americans, but you think that the more recent Khajiit are cheesy therefore they should return to http://blog.catsub.net/uploads/anime/Kawaii_Furry.jpg

At least Elsweyr isn't cheesy. Just remember that Bethesda seems to portray all its races as caricatures when they are in foreign provinces. Think of the poor mer.

I don't like the lore excuse much myself, but I personally like the most beastly version of Kajiit & Argonians in Morrowind. I think it gave the game a good flavor. but, it is all just personal preferance. And if it wasn't for the way they set it up i would say, "I hate furries, there's no point." but they are okay in TES, I never use one as a char but they are nice to see.

Return to this? They've never been this in the first place!

There was strictly no difference between a Khajiit head and, say, a Breton head in Daggerfall. They did not have facial fur, or cat ears, or whatever else. Only the light fur coating on their back and sides and the tail. And in Arena, they were humans with tattoos. Not even the tail or fur, and definitely not cat ears.

Arena and Daggerfall characters were very similar though, regardless. The Dark Elf royals in Wayrest look just like tanned humans (and in some cases, sporting red eyes, like Helseth). Indeed it [the Khajiit situation, not the Dark Elves] results in a bit less diversity but it's not that bad.



Unless I'm mistaken, weren't the Ohmes the Arena breed (their UESP description sounds like it)? The Daggerfall ones are clearly Ohmes-raht.

I do not know how either of them remind you of the Oblivion Khajiit.

Argh.