So I am playing Fallout and I am still having fun but the more I discover the more I think that the game(s) has(/have) taken the wrong turn at some point.

I am not talking about the lacking settlements or bugs. I am talking about the fact that almost every quest (radiant or not) comes down to kill something. Sometimes it is not even niceley decorated. You just get the kill order.

While killing is an obvious part in a post-apocalyptic world it shouldn't be the only idea behind the quest and level design. Eventually no one should be left if Fallout 4 wasn't a game.

Here are a list of "flaws" that show the wrong directions:

1. Sentient "enemy" factions are just enemies. They cannot be reasoned with in any way. No trading, no negotiations, nothing. This makes no sense in a world where even raiders as unreliable and untrustworthy as they may be still try to survive in the end.
2. No real distinction between the various gangs in the commonwealth. It is just implied that there are different groups though text and items. At least the various raiders should also have some sort of relationship with each other that can even be influenced.
3. Almost everything just respawns even stuff that shouldn't like secret stashs from before the war. This is a clear immersion breaker. I go into a location kill everyone and take everything just to come back later and see everything completly restored. Nothing changes.
4. Generic/ "radiant" quests are pretty stupid in on itself. Once a job is done it is done. It makes no sense that I have to do the same thing over and over.
5. No test of the rest of my skills/ attributes. Most of the time just my skill to kill is tested with an occational speech check. Why doesn't my sience skill gets used to solve a problem? Why can't I introduce some people to each other?
6. No diplomacy between the factions. The most one can do is to spare a faction by not interacting with it.

Just shooting everyone should of course be an option but not the only option for a player. I for once do not really enjoy mindless slaugher all the time and I am sure there are a lot of people that feel the same.

The roleplaying aspect of this game really suffers by only killing all the time. It is almost entirely a shooter and there are enough of these games already. I understand that Bethesda wants to get as many costumers as possible to buy the game but this direction is really making the game feel generic and that is turning me off. I get less and less excited when their next product gets announced despite playing Bethesda game since Morrowind.

Please share your thoughts.

Well what did you expect buying a game called Murder Hobo Adventures... Oh wait, that's the internal name

Yup, pretty much. Can't wait for the mob to come in here and try to tell you why butchering everything in front of you is 'roleplaying', or will use the cop out excuse of 'well then, don't take the quest, hurrp a durr' as if Fallout 4 offers much, if at all anything else in other categories.

If I wanted to enjoy high quality shoot em' up of delicious, meaty gore and "Everything in that general direction must die" viewpoint, I would play Killing Floor 1-2. I like that Fallout has this option, but there should be more than just "kill them all, let the devs sort them out".

While I have been pleased overall with the game, I do agree that it would be nice to see more roleplaying variety than just killing everything. If we could magically combine Bethesda and Bioware, the resulting games would be epic, in my opinion.

Don't forget a splice of Obsidian.

there was a guy who posted a video where he completed the whole game without killing anything...http://kotaku.com/guy-beats-fallout-4-without-killing-anyone-nearly-brea-1749882569

so you can play this game any way you want.

This is an area where ESO beats the crap out of F4.

The story lines were much better integrated and led smoothly one to another.

The story lines were connected so they made sense.

ESO wasn't just " go kill this and bring me the (item ) " ... there was a great storyline and it would have made a decent BOOK!!

That's one of many reasons why ESO took GOTY.

Next time, actually read the article and watch the video before posting that crap in here, mmk? Thank you.

the guy explicitly tells you that he has to break the game with glitches in order to get through without killing anyone, AND exploits the game, as he uses his companions to murder people, not him. This is technically not a pacifist playthrough, however, he's basing it on trying to have a 0 on his killcard stats. Even states it himself that he extremely disliked on how heavyhanded the entire game was in just 'you know what? Screw it! MASS MURDER PARTY AND YOU'RE ALL INVITED'. Savescumming is also not something to praise as well.

My thoughts exactly, OP. It's kinda taboo here to criticize the lack-of-game that this is, but good on you for making the same observations that a lot of us have made as well. Tells me I'm not far off in my review, unfortunately.

That is clearly not what I meant. That guy just has kill count of zero. The game is not designed to be play that way nor does this change anyting about the design flaws I mentioned.

Quick someone bash NV and call this a conspiracy.

But I do agree with you. Sometimes I just want solve stuff with none violence( and use force when there is no other option).

Yeah, saying that guy completed the whole game without killing anyone is akin to saying Hitler never killed anyone.

I think this raises some great points!

It's challenging, however, to create a game as physically large (land mass, locations, set pieces, interiors, clutter), as mechanically large (character variety, interchangeable meshes/textures, weapon/armor variety, crafting/building items, NPC variety), and as systemically large (quest/faction scripting, voiced dialogue, random encounters/loot, radiant quests, multiple endings) as Fallout 4 is without sacrificing something.

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3. and 5.: I think that some of what you're saying is simply not feasible given the game's engine, nor this particular game setup. There are many players that complete the main quest and simply want to keep going. As immense as this game is, it's still going to dry up eventually if nothing respawns. There will likely be mods in the near future that address immersion concerns like pre-war stashes respawning, though. (Despite how critical I can be of certain things, I know how the "organic container" system works very well, and believe me, it would not have been a good use of dev time for them to place special, non-organic containers and create specific, one-off leveled lists simply to spit-shine this rather tiny immersion element.)

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1., 2., 4., and 6.: Well stated. And I feel the game has actually been built to allow for this. It very much feels to me (unlike Skyrim or Fallout 3), as if this game was meant to grow radially instead of simply linearly. Again, with the massive amount of effort that was put into the main quest, the factions, the various endings (which is far more complex and problematic than some gamers may realize!) I'm not surprised the initial release was more focused. What makes me think the devs already have some of what you've suggested in mind is as follows:

A.) Local Leader Perk: This feels very much like a cornerstone for a whole new series of perks and gameplay functionality. I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually get an expansion that brings some "SimCity" aspects into settlement management (social unrest, secession, settlements being taken over by various factions, war between settlements, etc.)

B.) Factions and faction characters are introduced, nicely fleshed out at times, but the endgame/conclusion does not feel like an end, but rather the beginning of something new for that faction. I would expect to see post-end-game DLC unique to each faction.

C.) The overall state of the Wasteland after the endgame seems to create a power void. One or another major player in Boston was just eliminated -- all factions will likely jump in to fill the void...or a new faction may wind up arriving on the scene. (I notice the Enclave is suspiciously absent from the scene. And the DC Wasteland is not that far from Boston...)

I've been an ice cube for 200 years. Watched my wife murdered and my child kidnapped all to realize I was a science project. I'm a bit displeased and they're lucky I left anyone alive. Kill'em all I say got a little stress to release

100% in agreement with you OP.
I hated that I cleared Hubris comics and swept it clean of anything usefull and completed a fetch quest there that a ghould in Goodneig or gave me and then Brotherhood gave me a random ass fetch quest there and when I went there EVERYTHING was respawned, junk, aid, etc
Even stuff that are not in a container apparently respawn.
Give those Mr.Handy fuels outside SuperDuperMart a while and they respawn, I took them three times now.
There is even a mod now that completely disables all fetch quests... But cut those out and there are not that many qests left, which are again 90% fetching shooting galleries.

What would be really nice here -- and I can't believe more games have not emulated this -- is a "Nemesis" system similar to the one in Shadow of Mordor. Might be nice to have various raider / super-mutant / faction groups set up shop in certain build zones after a while, spawn a legendary member that works like a local captain. You could use diplomacy to form trade agreements, have them attack other settlements, that sort of thing. There could be a chart or something that showed you the overall strength of settlement leaders and their food, defence level, affiliation with other settlements...

I don't get it...I thought people that bought a Bethesda game liked, and knew that there would be a whole lotta killing...that's why I buy them..

I'm glad enemies and containers and loot respawn...it would get very boring roaming a wasteland that could potentially be completely empty..

Basically FO4 is the same kill, kill, kill, that FO3 and NV were...even TES games cant avoid it...it's a major part of Bethesda games, and they should keep it that way...

Why else would they invest so much into armor, weapons, healing aids, drugs..etc...So you can go sit down and have a cup of tea with a raider, and discuss plans to release a kidnap victim? Nahh, a bullet to the face is more exciting..

It's more of a Fallout thing than a Bethesda thing. Both Fallout 1 and 2 were possible to complete without killing anyone. The games offered a LOT of different solutions to every section. For i.e.: to overthrow the kingpin of a crime family and liberate a town, you could gun your way through his guards, kick in the door to his office, and shoot him. Sure. But you could also:

1.) Use Speech to rile up the people of the town so they all help in the fight.

2.) Use diplomacy to simply convince him to move his organization elsewhere (Which required outrageously high Charisma and Speech...and would also make a later part of the game more interesting.)

3.) Hack a terminal during the middle of the night, find some dirt, then blackmail him into backing off.

4.) Pretend to work for him, then either poison him or place an explosive trap in his desk.

5.) Actually work for him, turn coat on the police of the town, kill their sheriff, and make a pile of caps. (I think this also gave you access to free booze and prosttutes for the rest of the game, and encouraged a character with severe substance abuse issues.)

The best part was, the game didn't really tell you that you could do any of this. It was sort of up to you to play around and figure something out. By comparison, Bethesda's versions of the game have been more visually awesome, but more narrow in scope and method.

But isn't the wasteland a violent place? There are raiders, mutants, and ghouls all over the place. It's not like Tamriel.

Yeah, I know. I have a bit of programming experience myself and there is always not enough time no matter what I make.

The problem here is however that they never have gone back to change their design. Maybe that will change but we are stuck with what we have for now.

There should have been a system to let locations change throughout a playthrough. Some Scavengers could for example scavange a location next time you visit, some other gang moves in or the institute steals energy. I do think that would have been a good time investment. Doing everything over and over is just boring.

If I remember correctly than Obsidian only allowed certain areas to respawn (sadly only inside) in New Vegas. The fiend vault never got filled up with fiends again. This was of course a bit lacking as well but still better than just doing the same "dungeon level" over and over.

I think that problem has only become as glaring as it is because there are too many radiant quest that may send you to same location over and over. It was easier to ignore the radiant quests in Skyrim.

Had the same feeling. I sure as hell hope they expand upon that and not only add buildable objects. I personally would like to see production, research, nation building and diplomacy (in every direction) added to the game. It is a bit sad that there is no one notable in the settlements who does something.

General Oliver's speech always comes to my mind when I think about about settlements although he didn't cover everthing:

"...

Do you know what you are doing? Making a nation - like you think you are doing, ain't like chowing down on a pile of Fancy Lad Snack Cakes.

Think you got the guts to carve out a frontier? Build towns, protect the roads, run supplies, train troops?

..."

After-the-End DLC should be pretty much a given at this point. I hope we can really create something here. Create a true nation where people can walk from A to B without having to sneak past the various dungeons and the monsters that come out the dungeons. Where trade, production and prosperity can grow, without people living from day to day, struggeling just to survive.

Someone could even repurpose cleared locations in a save area where settlers can go to work to if things go really well.

But I am getting off topic here ...

Well, I think that was kind of the idea behind the original Fallout. "There, safely sealed behind the impenetrable vault door, and buried under a mountain of rock, a generation has passed without knowledge of the outside world. Life in the vault...was about to change."

The idea was you were a civilized human being. (Vault 13 apparently functioned as one would expect -- no crazy experiments or staged torture of its residents. People got along, were quite close, educated their children, maintained technology, were clean and well-governed, etc.) Then, one of these educated, civilized vault dwellers is sent out into the Mad Max world on the surface. That was the story your character told -- were they swallowed by the Wasteland and become one of these apocalypse creatures, or did they bring civilization, education, and a better way to the Wasteland?

Yes and no. Killing everyone is usally the last option for someone even remotley sane. Not an uncommon solution but definitley "the last option".

What would raiders raid if they kill everyone? How would the gunners do buisness if they kill everyone who comes near their bases. They are a huge organization that takes every job no matter how dirty.

No matter who. No one should just make a comeback from the dead after you killed them and stuff you take shouldn't also just reappear. After a while fewer enemies should be near the SS. Even if they can just move in "from outside the map" than they should at least stay the [censored] away from someone who has killed everyone who poses a thread.

Plebeian put it niceley toghether in the post above yours on the type of quest that I want in a roleplay game while still fitting the setting.

BTW Tamriel has the exact same problems to a lesser extend.

PS: Sorry for the potential double post.

More Obsidian, less EAware. Unless you want tagged on multiplayer battles to win the game.

In which game did that happen?

Are there any pacifist games out there where the point is not to kill anything. I mean... other than Indie crap.