I was trying to think of a really comical example of this very thing, only to remember that it's from a major early-mid part of Fallout 4

Even a dung beetle deserves the right to live

True but not all of them are psychotic. Look at Cait, shes seen some [censored]. Shes basically a raider, but shes not evil. Some of them even wish that people didn't fight back and just gave up their loot so they didn't have to kill. For every crazy one theres 2 normal ones. Ive heard 1 say they have kids to feed.

I love this writing move, sure its not like it stopped me from busting down doors and killing raiders, but it does add a shade of grey to the player character him/herself, we are not just gunning down faceless goons, we are killing friends, brothers, siblings, maybe even parents, sure they sustain there life by robbing others, but are we any different?

As far as I know, Cait didn't go around murdering innocent people, torturing them and stringing them up on light poles.


Not everyone with a tragic sob story are secretly good people who just had the rotten misfortune of getting a bad deal. Some people are just pure evil, and they get enjoyment from hurting anyone who gets in their way. I'm so sick of stories these days trying to humanize what are clearly monsters.

I remember sneaking up of a pair of raiders in an apartment building (unmarked, in Lexington I think) and one of them was going on to the other about how he'd been needing to find a place like this so that he could his kids/family or some such. I basically snuck up on them while they were looting some old building, and they attacked me for it. In all honesty, I don't consider them unjustified.


That said I disagree that killing raiders is evil. Not only do 90% of them seem to be bloodthirsty sadists, but 99% of that time you're doing so in self-defense. Though admittedly, I do think a lot of our conflicts with raiders are completely instigated by ourselves alone. Who's to say that some dangerous but sane gang holed up in abandoned factory #2719 is actively looking to use violence except to deal with the nosy wanderer who waltzed into their territory?

There is that disconnect between all the development in notes and terminals on the raiders that show the various gangs and desires and interests that make them seem like it would be interesting to interact with and maybe even join one of the gangs and then game refusing to let you interact with any of them.

Except she beat people half to death in the combat zone, did drugs and killed her parents. Sure she had a good reason but thats my point. Shes essential your chaotic companion. And to your second point, even Hitler was an artist. Eva Braun saw something to love about him. So yea he may have done terrible things but he still had some good, however little. Hell Satan was an angel before he became what he is now.

Patricide, boxing, and drug use do not make a raider. A violent nut, sure, but she's not attacking or threatening people for money.

Take her along with you, she loves violent approaches and extortion. And since when is beating someone with a bat "boxing"?

What does Hitler have to do with anything? In any event, he was evil. I don't care if he randomly spared a few people for whatever reason, or treated the Goebbles children as if they were his own. It doesn't excuse all the horrors he unleashed onto Europe.


And Cait spends her time beating other Raiders to death, it's not like she's in Vault 81 punting Austin and the other kids into comas. If the worst she's done was murder her scumbag parents, hike herself up on Psycho and clobber Raiders to death, then she's a damned saint in my Sole Survivor's eyes. A saint with a little (much needed) support to steer her onto the right path.




Doesn't make her evil. It just means she likes to fight a lot.

You have an odd view on extortion lol

I have permanent openings in the various (prosperous) settlements I've built. The "Just trying to survive" excuse doesn't fly when there's a peaceful option right there. (i.e. they're literally attacking a settlement with plenty of food and water and openings rather than coming in and joining)

in the cold post apocalypse where the soft methods became a waste of time?

I agree that these things don't make her evil, especially violence, which is pretty much par for the wasteland. But extortion is an inherently nasty thing to do to someone. It is exactly what the local raider gangs are doing to Bunker Hill, and Cait shouldn't get a pass for it if raiders don't.


But I'm in the camp that Cait isn't evil just because she's done bad things. Just like I can't reasonably say that all raiders are evil just because they do bad things. Some certainly are, with the worst of them being sadistic psychopaths. But some are just surviving, or even trying to support their families he only way they know how. I'm not saying this makes what they do okay, but I do believe that motive should play a role when judging someone's character. After all, how many Sole Survivors blew up the Prydwin or the Institute, both with innocents and children inside?

Exactly. I like the twist that we're not much different from the raiders as we kill people and take their caps and goods to sustain ourselves.

Not all raiders are like that, some are heartless bastards doing unspeakable things and others are just trying to survive or take care of their family by any means necessary.

The "good" people of Covenant are worse then some of the raider groups when you look for the truth behind the nice community facade.

Approving of extortion isn't the same as actively holding people up under threat of violence/holding loved ones hostage, or being part of a band that practices the same. Might make her criminal if she is actively extorting people, but being branded a raider requires a widescale practice on top of other diagnostic raider habits.

That's true in all of history. Some people forage, some turn to agriculture, others raid, and plenty do a combination of the three. They're all perfectly valid survival strategies, as farming is hard work and takes forever: why break your back for months for something that an unlucky winter can destroy, when you can rush in and grab what you can? Many extant and extinct cultures practiced this without being "evil"; the despicable thing about Fallout raiders is how much they relish the gorier aspects of their job. Their home decorating style borrows a lot more from Pickman than they'd admit.

Kinduv makes me admire Skyrim all that much more. More often than not, when bandits would see you, they'd start yelling threats at you to warn you away. Kinduv makes the whole "just trying to survive and totes not evil for the sake of evil" thing more believable, when they aren't 100% speaking through their pipe pistols and pool cues.

If anything else, Cait is a brusque anti-hero. If she were forced to save a settlement, she'd probably just walk away unless enticed with a lot of caps and beer. Holding people hostage and torture doesn't seem like something she'd do.

While some raiders revel in the gorier aspect sure one can also see those "decorations" as warning signs to outsiders. People who crossed them that have been made examples of. As for their open hostility, remember your 1st encounter is in Concord unless you strayed from the MC. Raiders interact with each other. You kill one of their leaders. Obviously you're gonna earn a rep. And Raiders dont kill their victims immediately, they demand randsome which you can pay or slaughter them all. Im not saying their innocent nor excusing their actions. Just that im feeling like a raider myself at times

It does sound like maybe more of the raiders should have been designated "Scavenger" , and I do agree with the graying of the line showing that these people are more than just sadistic killers.

I do think however that there is a line at the edge of civilization and past that line is where all raiders live.

I also think a civilized person can stand near that line and be civil, and then once someone outside that line attempts to cross it to harm people, that person can then do things that are considered barbarous to protect civilization.

The second your actions are selfish or protecting civility is just an excuse for your actions, you are no longer a civil person who does barbarous things that are required to get us through the growing stage from bararism to full civility, you are a barbarian, and we civilized folk have developed a few advanced items specifically to deal with your kind.

So yes, you can be "Evil" but only if it's for the "Greater Good"

They fire on my without provocation and / or warning making them the enemy period. The more of them that are dead the easier my job is

I feel exactly the same way. I look at my kill count.. Over 1400 peoples I've killed now. Why? Just because I'm nosy and want to see what's in a building?. All these guys seem to be doing is trying to survive. They don't seem as evil as in the last games. You've basically got lots of different factions that are hostile for no good reason. The gunners seem to actively recruit, The Children of Atom seem to actively recruit, Scavengers are just people scrounging around.. So why are any of these factions initially hostile towards me?

In this game, I am totally the bloodthirsty raider killing for no good reason. I am the evil. It's the main reason I let Pickman live.. we are one in the same. He's probably killed much less people than I have and at least he's doing something artistic with those killings. I'm just blowing peoples heads off to see what's in their pockets.

I feel you've expressed it best.

That's not entirely true. I have walked up to various factions gun holstered and they growl and tell me to go away......raiders did that too.....but most often it is the gunner who do that..

Maybe it is a bug or something but I did it last night several times.....maybe the action of holstering your gun works on them to deaggro them briefly..I dunno

I concur. These people have lived their entire lives in the wastes doing their best. We just stepped out of an iceberg and suddenly feel like we're more lawful than everyone else. Sure we lost a wife and son, but to them thats a daily risk. We put ourselves over them not even thinking of the horror theyve seen. Those raider gals for example... It scares me to say but theyve all likely suffered sixual abuse, physical and psychological abuse. Same for the guys. They're all on drugs. Hungry. Desperate. They likely lost loved ones in worse ways. Lets face it. Nora died quick. Imagine being eaten by a super mutan, deathclaws or mirelurk? Starving to death? Growing up alone with no parents and being forced to rob and kill to survive? Youd go crazy too

Theres a loading screen that states that if you holster your weapon your human enemies might let you go.