Don't have time to give any thoughtful responses to what you said right now (I'm busy playing the game), but I feel you man. Especially what you said about the fear and apprehension missing from the game. Those are the parts I have loved most from Bethesda games over the years.

The cazadore cave... can't remember the name did that for me. I knew from the format of previous lesser creature filled caves that something was gonna happen, but it scared me witless anyway. (I HATE bugs!)

Vault 11..... I don't know if you did it at an early level like me, but ouch.

I don't get it. What does a dungeon have to hold to not feel like "thats it"? I mean, to me, all of Fallout 3s dungeons - and eventually the whole game - felt like that (not to dismiss the game it self as I didn't mind it - the dungeons in particular - too much, but just ponting out that the difference in between is far less than what advertised by some of the fans). Embracing corpses do nothing to enhance the gameplay, and while fun in small amounts, dungeons that have nothing worthwhile (gameplay or storywise) inside do not either. They're just distractions to the player to either cover up for the lack of the point of the game (the MQ) or to fill out the unreasonably empty spaces that nothing else covers - and while both are basically necessary in this particular design, neither is good in too big amounts.

Actually I'm staring at the hole in vault 19 right now leading to the sulfur caves and am feeling pretty apprehensive. I have high hopes, here goes.

Just had a flashback of something from Fallout 3. When you are first making your way through the beginning of the Yao Guai Tunnels or whatever they're called and you haven't seen anything yet except the remains of one of their victims. You get to a crossroads and all of the sudden one runs across your path and you just see it for a split second and then it's gone. My heart leapt into my throat and I'll never forget that moment. incredible pacing, that's what I'm talking about.

Ok back the the sulfur cave, although I don't think it can live up to my expectations now...

The surge of expectation . . the feeling that down here, 'something wicked, this way comes'. I don't mean just a huge cave full of monsters, rather the lure that going into this really dark cave armed with nothing but a torch and a machine gun is a really really bad stupid thing to do (if it were real life) and yet the compulsion that because it is a game you know you have to and you're going to have fun doing it.

The very first time you met a Yao Gui (Yogi bear - funny ) and seeing it run straight at you. A bit like the difference in the old zombie movies and the new. A shambling hulking zombie coming at you is a little scary yes, but one coming at you, running, screaming, frothing at the mouth is going to have you running very very fast in the opposite direction. Its the fear element - the anticipation. That is my point I think. I just haven't got it this time is all to the same extent that the previous one did.

Here's my verdict. Amazing looking, I really enjoyed the colors and general look of the cave. The mixed vault and cave elements are the kind of variety I'm looking for. Geckos and nightkin are both very cool creatures and fun to fight, one of them being stealthy and the other always wanting to run right at you. So much potential, yet so painfully small... I was so excited for this dungeon and once again it's tiny and I'm already done exploring every square inch. I'm off to check out the sewers under Vegas. Peace.

But New Vegas has all that. And to such a lesser extent that it feels rewarding more often. :shrug:

Hmmm . .

Granted it has 'oh no' moments but i found that this was due to my knowing that the monsters were so powerful that quite frankly I was going to die if i didn't leave right away because they were so many of them and they were so . . erm . . powerful. As I have said before the nearest I have got are the Rodents of Unusual Size, purely because I went in at a reasonably low level, on my own and after fighting just one of them knew this was going to be tricky, I had to use stealth to circumvent them in association with dropping a few frag mines, all the while making my way to 'youknowwhat' in the darkness. it was fun, nerve wracking trying to dodge their senses and trying not to make too much noise (annoying clanking floating barrels )

My play through is going on as realistic a footing as possible so due to weight restrictions I carry only as much ammo as I think I need, and minimum armour etc etc. I am sure others play this on normal with multiple companions and no weight restrictions and is something that is hard to balance in game difficulty for the designers. I am thinking more of the visceral fear that encompassed some elements of the previous game and were just so gosh darn wacky. I realise also that they are pitching it to many who play FPS - hence the use of iron sights etc and this too is a good thing. It unfortunately means that by possibly trying to please so many, they many alienate many as well.

The previous game to my mind was written by people who 'got' this and the whole mythos of the 50's / Vault-tec experience mix and had a measure of wit, guile and wicked humour that while still there just isn't up to the same grade. As I also stated before - it is still a very very good game. It just doesn't have the emotion I think . . It is a good game merely that these elements can be found in a number of other similar games. The previous Fallout was essentially that - Fallout, this one could almost fit into other generes without much re-classification. It's Fallout in name, not strictly in nature . . need I be so bold as to point out that one starts out not even as a Vault dweller? Would you even know it was Fallout if they didn't have the Vaults in it? Really?

Actually, some of that reply sounds wrong. I can't unfortunatley re-edit it, hence this reply.

I will reply later (it's a tad late here 3:42am) so I'm probably not getting my meaning across properly. Will do so later and hopefully not include so many typos.

Don't get me wrong though - it IS a good game and actually surprises me in all sorts of good ways as I continue to play. I just want more fear. Isn't that what stepping out of your lovely little cocoon/vault into the big bad world is all about? Not merely because yet another DeathClaw has topped the horizon. Fear has many faces, I'd just like to see it manifest itself in more unexpected ways mayhap.

Have fun . .

Well, I have to disagree with this one. I felt that the previous game was not written by people that got it, but people that thought they got it. This is evident in the needles abundance of reahshed material from the original game, lack of consequences, poor writing and needlessly dumbed down RPG mechanics. By people that thought the series was a 50's scifi simulator and nothing much more. It was a fun game on it's own (for a while) but it really did not capture the essence of what it was trying to be, setting and gameplaywise. There was wit and guile and humor, but none of that seemed to reflect the source in a meaningful way, as was the case with the quests - nothing really mattered.

And New Vegas has all that back - some in greater and some in lesser numbers. So I can't really see the criticisms towards it as anything but a boredom of the general gameplay design. To me the increased emphasis on writing and the general lack of emphasis for dungeons was a godsend, as otherwise I would've like been bored to death by the sameyness in the first couple of hours.

The dungeons worked for the first playthrough, when I was searching them to find something that would actually matter (quests, NPCs, items) - and as I didn't deliver (as those things just weren't there - at all) it just ate 80% of the game, leaving me mouth open asking myself "So that's it then?".

This is how I felt them. I can't argue about your likings or dislikings, but to me the previous game just felt like a big dungeon crawler with poor mechanics and writing; whereas the second came out as a well written story with an anxious attempts at improving the gameplay (somewhere succeeding, somewhere staying basically the same).

And on the final note... You didn't start in a Vault in the second game either, yet I felt it was a genuine Fallout game with every element that should be there (even though the humor was overabundant at times).

:)



Duly noted.

There is a in NEW VEGAS and compared with the Sanctuary where we all loved to stain our pants looking for Vengeance, it is a good example of how rushed / unfinished the "dungeons" are in this new title, other than the Vaults. The Vaults are terrific.

I'm a little baffled as to how peeps are defending the "quality" over FO3's. They are filled with the same things: desks, lockers, crates, dead bodies, egg clutches. In FALLOUT3 we got the army depot and Fort Bannister. This time we get Vegas Steel: tiny little areas with 3-4 rooms decorated with the very same objects.

In fact we sometimes get the very same map: 1/2 of all the caves in NEW VEGAS are the exact same Y junction pattern. The Republic of Dave building - the exact building, mind you! - shows up 4 times (two of which are remote "mining shacks") And what does one pick up in NEW VEGAS? Some amazing new loot? Try scrap metal, stimpacks and teddy bears/ashtrays. I cleared out the Quarry and came out with 7 hands. No chems, no ammo, no skill books, no buildings to explore, nada. What's with that?

I'm a little slow so someone explain to me how having NOTHING to do in Bonnie Springs (no buildings to go in, no loot, no drainage ditch, no interesting critters (it was still filled with Mantis at level 26), no scrap of paper/log to explain what happened to all the residents, nothing. Zip. Niet. In what dimension is that consider "improving" FALLOUT3?

NEW VEGAS is only "better" if "better" = less of the exact same stuff. By all means make smaller dungeons if they are much more interesting or filled with things we haven't seen yet. That is simply not the case here: the interior cells are almost all filled with recycled objects from the previous game.

With the exception of the vaults, the "dungeons" are generally much, much smaller. Whether this a blessing or a curse is very much dependent on the player. I go "curse" myself, but obviously I don't speak for everyone.

I think this is one of New Vegas plus points actually. There are many places to explore but none of them take a long time to check out. I started avoiding none quest related locations in Fallout 3 simply because they started getting tediously large and uninteresting. There were many places in Fallout 3 that were filled with rubbish just to fill up the space, in New Vegas there is something worth finding in almost every location (on hardcoe mode at least).

For me I always feel a game achieves greatness if it leaves me wanting more, as opposed to being glad it's over. This stays true when it comes to exploring locations.

Mojave Wastelend is actually smaller than Wasteland DC (both outside and underground) so, if you just avoid going to subways and dungeons in FO3 you would still have more land to explore than in FNV. Also, in FNV many location markers represent buildings or dungeons that cannot be entered and explored and on some locations devs even forgot to put markers.

There does seem not to be that many "dungeons" It won't be to long before we get lots of cave mods.

Sadly I'll miss out there. My iMac can run Morrowind and Oblivion so I can play mods for those games (Tamriel Rebuilt and The Lost Spires are my favs), but it won't run Fallout 3 or NV.

Like i've said this game's focus is on quests and storyline, with a superficial open world aspect. Don't try to play it like a Bethesda game.

What i've seen so far, only Broc Flower Cave has even remotely reminded me of Fallout 3's dungeons.

Don't know if it's been mentioned but a couple a vaults had pretty good size "dungeon crawls" and one in particular was tic-tic-tickety goood!

Obviously, a great many Bethesda fans play Fallout:NV and happen to like the Bethesda expansive open world. I share the concern. Although I enjoy the storytelling of the main quest, I think the world build was somewhat inferior to that of FO3. It is better then I thought it would be though...well, it's at least bigger then I thought it would be, Dungeon-siege channeling notwithstanding.

I see this come up quite a lot here and while I can understand this viewpoint, I'd say I disagree with the sentiment if you were to look at FO:NV's "world-build" as being based off of quests instead of exploration. I have 70 hours into the game and haven't even given the chip to anybody yet, and I feel like I've seen quite a heck of a lot of space. I haven't gone out "exploring" because that's not why I play Fallout (even though I'll probably choose the "Explorer" perk when I hit level 30 just to make sure I've seen everything) so the world being built on quests, to me, is much better design. Just depends on what your criteria for a well-done "world build" is I suppose. :shrug:

Yes, ultimately, it's a matter of taste, and the discussion is as old as the fallout forum

. . and unfortunately it seems, it is an a discussion that Obsidian did not entirely think about.

In general though before I continue I'd like to point out a few things that I am basing this note on.

1. I am concerned with any aspect, not just the Fallout series, though it is more greatly defined by this genre due to the fact that after all, that is what we are playing.
2. I realise that it appears easier to criticise a person's work than it is to merit them with admiration however this is not the case. I am stating facts that are obvious with a view to highlighting them to both the reader and possibly Obsidian.

Some other things I have noticed.

1. Some of the map design is just lazy. Really. If you can't see this or can't except this then quite frankly you are either reading this with blinkers on or are solely a FPS MW2 person. Read no further – it will only irritate you. Example – FO3 was a true sandbox world. This is not. If I see a slightly undulating upward slope I expect to be able to walk/run up it. I do not expect to come to an abrupt halt ? of the way up due to having run smack into an invisible wall. This is lazy design and extremely disappointing. Due to this (and the apparent lack of sub-levels) the advertising that it is as big a world as FO3 is a misnomer. It isn't. Fact.
2. Companions are too easy to get so early on and make a HUGE difference to your playing experience. Granted the easy option is to say 'don't take one', however more considerate responses would enable (in hardcoe mode) for companions not to immediately and substantially regenerate their hit-points on the resolution to a fight. Stimpacks are extremely hard to come by and this is good, so the question should be asked how do the companions get full health again? Where do they get the health from? This annoyed me in FO3 and unfortunately has been carried on from it.
3. NPC areas of response. If you wander into such an NPC area then you will of course be attacked. Unfortunately if you then wander (or run) out of it, they will lose interest and merely go back again to their designated area. Bad. One of the worst examples I can state is south of Primm, near the Nipton intersection whereby if you stay between the Nightcrawlers and the 'Raiders' you will be detected by Nightcrawlers and whilst they will start to run towards you, once they get to the edge of their zone/area of response will immediately turn round and wander back – ad infinitum. Bad. One of the best things about GO3 was the ability to lead animals into other areas of control. Example - darting a DeathClaw and stealthily leading it to an Enclave camp and sitting back watching them wipe each other out. This just doesn't happen. Unless it is specifically scripted to happen, it doesn't. I saw another really bad example of a Legion raiding party wipe out 2 traders and 4 merc escorts within shouting distance of an NCR camp yet the NCR didn't move a muscle. Really bad.
4. Much of the map is simply there, sitting unoccupied with no real or apparent motive for so being. Granted it is the wasteland but surely there should be more patrols (NCR) or sporadic fights between different animals or inter species battles? Unfortunately I think this is tied to 3 (above)
5. I have yet to come across any location, any, that filled me with the kind of fascination that say Paradise Falls, or Lamplight or Big Town or any one of a number of other examples did, never mind the exploration of the DC ruins. This is really unfortunate. The 'quests' you do seem tied to nothing apart from a town's perception of you. Nothing gives me that certain sense of satisfaction from approaching that location or doing the quest. Example – Cottonwood Cove should be a hustling bustling area that a major staging post for raiding parties should be. Under constant fire as boats of Legion are brought across, where slaves are traded as all the while NCR try to plug the gap in their lines. The film 'Enemy at the Gates' is a perfect example of how this should be, especially at the start where the soldiers are going across the river. Intense and gritty where life is expendable and short. These are slaves after all – whipped on by sadistic legionnaires in order to claim their new bounty. Cottonwood Cove left me seriously underwhelmed. It was as if the emotion, the drama the whole experience had just been cobbled together.

This to me is where this game has fallen down. The emotion, the whole raw drama of involving the character you play into something that is much greater than you and which you get to use, abuse and control is just missing.

This is evident in the aspect of Dungeons too. Where are the experiences that are on a par with the explorations of Old Olney sewers, or crossing from Lamplight into the Mutant vault or descending into the fear of Dunwich or the subways of D.C. or etc etc . .

Surely with all that dry earth it is an absoloute treasure trove to burrowing insects. What happened to ants building a nest that collapses in on a radscorpion pit and the two fighting pitched battles which you wander into. Or indeed pit fighting for money in some of the destitute areas (or Fiend territory) pitting you against other creatures based on your skill level for money as the crowds screams and shout, laying side bets on who will win. Think Roman gladiators – where is that?

Caverns that are booby trapped by prospectors, hidden mines, trip wires linked to ammo boxes, I mean really, didn't Obsidian think about this?

The emotion is missing, the fear, the respect for the wasteland is sadly lacking, apart from 'uber' creatures, ( I mean really, is there a need for so many? Or is this to balance out having 'uber' companions?). I remember at the start of FO3 cursing and swearing at Bloatflies in packs of more than 4 or 5. Now it seems you have simply swapped it for cazadore. Not hard to do and unfortunately not very thoughtful.

This seems like a rant, however it's not. There are aspects that I do love about it however given the fact that Obsidian were given the items and modding tools from Bethesda to simply make what is in essence an add-on in all but name, they could have spent a great deal more time honing and sharpening their design (not the code) to give us their interpretation of what they thought Fallout should be. It should have been great, instead it's simply good.

Kali,

I think you have some blinkers on, my friend.

Big Town? A bunch of boarded up brown buildings. With one anemic quest.

Paradise Falls? Looked cool and then had: one anemic quest.

Lamplight? A series of caves with an interesting concept but what was so breathtaking about it?

Now look at Freeside: I have spent over 4-6 hours just questing there alone. The Kings entire questline, the Van Graffs, the Wrangler casino quests - it is packed with things to do and characters and dialogue.

Let's look again at Paradise Falls: 10 minutes there and all the dialogue is over. The "Head Slaver" (foget his name) has about 1 minute of dialogue and a free quest with no depth. Wow - takes my breath away.

I give to the OP that the world is no where near as open ended and exploratory.... but FO3 was bare bones in terms of quests and locations - with many locations like Green Mills, Talon Base, Fort Independence looking cool and having no depth AT ALL ... just a bunch of people to shoot (yawn, again).

I'll take the BoS base in this game (again, 3-4 hours of questing goodness there alone) any day of the week to Fort Independence (go collect a laser, thanks, have a stimpack).

Do I wish the devs at Obsidian had created some vast "dungeons" in the outer fringes and wasteland - of course, but not if it meant sacrficing the incredible "meat" they put on the bone this time around.

Bethesda made a skeleton and had almost no meat (Capitol Building - great set up, trenches etc. and then NOTHING except run around and shoot. No backstory, no Talon quests, no Mutant quests nothing)

J

You are confusing your own interpretation.

The locations I mention (e.g. Lamplight etc) have much greater scope than most of the locations that New Vegas has. Locations that are highlighted on your map should be significant places, worth investigating and central to a plot of some description. You can't compare the two and to do so is silly. How can one compare 'Legion Raiding Camp' or 'Sniper's Nest' or 'add abandoned 4x4 shack here' to the likes of 'The Republic of Dave' or indeed any other FO3 location – you can't.

Again quest wise you are confusing issues. 'Shoot 'em in the head' was huge, Taking over Tenpenny tower too had sufficent meat on the bone . .

My point is that there is no emotion. I notice you deliberately( ?) haven't tackled any of the more unusual points I raised. You have taken the east option of simply cherry picking what you want out of it . .

This game is too fluffy, it needa a HUGE does of The Pitt mentality – gritty, harsh, raw. A couple of powder gangers hung out to dry on a cross are token merely. Give us fear I say. Emotion.

Dude, you are comparing towns with "little location with a silent story".

In fact, Little Lamplight doesn't have anything to do with grand scheme of things.....it is just another entrance to Vault 87(?)...oh wait, the Bethesda block the other entrance.....so much for sandbox yet there is only one way to pursue MQ?