Ok, what if anything about this game speaks realism? People are using this excuse to explain the "emptiness", ok then how do explain the strip? Its almost like the new vegas location was picked in pre production for this excuse alone. "Its all desert. We don't have to put much in, and when they complain we will use the real mojave as an example". Laziness? It looks like I'm going to have to buy NV for the PC because once again with a Bethesda game, it is up to the modders to make the game that should have been.

Where are your facts? Its undeniable that a lot of FNVs map markers are redundant with nothing of interest. Nothing to explore, loot or even kill in some cases. Almost every location in Fallout 3 had at least a skill book, ammo or Bobblehead. Failing that there is always random encounters to add.

Total BS, most of 3's locations had squat, subway tunnels were a nightmare. It's laughable that you mention skill books, 3 was so easy you didnt need them. Maybe you svck as im finding a lot mroe then the reducdant copy and paste map that was in 3.

Give me some examples rather than simply saying I svck and im wrong.

EDIT: Here you go, you can use this as a reference
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_3_places

You seem to be taking your time after claiming most of Fallout 3s locations had nothing.

Fallout 3 had scalable difficulty based on your level.... so pretty much everywhere I went the game was super easy even on very hard difficulty. Fallout 3 only had a few locations that I would avoid at low levels if at all. Fallout 3 buildings and whatnot were impressive physically, but most were ultimately boring to me because they all looked the same and were just copy & pasted map segments rearranged to make you think it is unique (you see one section of subway or building and you have seen them all...). Fallout 3 wasteland's random melee enemies had no personality to them and only varied in the speed they run at (I wonder why the thousands or robots were not sent to invade China).
Fallout 3 was great if you like repetitive MMO grind gameplay and lots of time wasted traveling between locations.

NV had a LOT more detail put into the areas of the wasteland (notice environmental effects like dust storms?) The vegetation varied depending on the area you were in instead of EVERYTHING looking exactly the same. The "outdoors" did have some repetitive elements, after Novac I rarely encountered enemies on the roads (I think that is meant to convey the sense that NCR traffic frequented them and so were too risky for raiding). The minor dungeons often felt short, but they did not have any areas that felt like "filler trash". The people weren't blasted away by nukes so the houses and such were already scavenged clean which is why they did not bother allowing you to enter them. These things fleshed out the world and gave it some depth.

I think if you cut out the time waster trash from FO 3 it would be exactly the same as NV....I do not miss mindlessly walking through empty areas. Very hard difficulty on hardcoe mode made me actually think about what I was doing and faced me with some tough decisions....(do I toss stuff that I might need so that I can carry more water and ammo?!), but I wish there was more limb crippling on my weaker characters.

FO3 uses the WHOLE map, its locations are much more spread out than New Vegas's but they cover literally the entire map, you can walk to the northern, southern, eastern, or western boundaries and find stuff near there. Not so in NV; this is perhaps its only major deficiency.

Huh?

The point about an abstract map form being better and more realistic than a square one? Yeah, ok.

Edit: LOL looks like Grandcoup above me missed it too hahhah




I appreciate realism more than anything, but i find it funny that people still use this argument about real life locations. If fallout exactly replicated exactly a random part of Nevada (in a fallout scenario always) would you be happy with it? No because it will be just an empty space with a few hills, and one gas station. It is a game you know. The feeling of "emptiness" you are talking about is something totally different than having poor content in a game. You could be able to feel the emptiness of Nevada and at the same have many interesting locations to explore. If you feel there are enough of these then there's no point in arguing.


Something irrelevant... oh i so miss these dungeon-like metro tunnels filled with hidden cults, mirelurk nests, armies of ghouls and so many more interesting stuff...

wait... what?

FO3's story line really pulled you in, you watched your character grow up understood his past. The ending you did with your father for him.
Iloved Fo3's storyline 10x better. In addition there was alot more to exploring as well which was so nice.
But where FNV shines is it weapon selection. by the time i hit lvl 7 in F03 i need my hunting rifle a fist full of gernades and thats about it. except really big battles and deathclaws.
This game i have a standard gun the cowboy repeater but i actually need a few other weapons to survive i like how i occassionally need to use a melee or high-powered shot gun to save the day.
hardcoe mode is a waste. did it. boring and repetitive, not difficult. factions are very nice and i like how neither side is completly "good" or "bad"
and as for siding with anyone having some bad to it, thats life, nothings gonna be perfect, side with legion gonna be great for some svck for other groups.
Compaions make this game so much more fun with me not being in constant fear of them dying so i dont have to always watch their ass.
idk hopefully DLC will fill in some of the holes in exploring.
also remember new vegas is surrounded by a desert. not exactly D.C. levels of population.

Best post in the thread. I made the same comparrison to Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2.

Mass Effect 2 removed all of the brainless planet driving, Unmanageable inventory, to something that was streamlined and worked.

Then came in the people complaining ME 2 was too small, not enough quests/locations etc etc. failing to realize in ME1 ALOT of the side quests were essentially the same quest with a new label. All of the merc/military installations must have been supplied by ACME home base, because there were 4 interior styles repeated over and over, with the same objective of go in this building youve been to 15 other times and kill these people, I swear you havent done this quest before!
ME2 had more unique content and actually added strategy to the combat.

As for Fallout I think you have the same thing, its obvious more time was spent on story(whether you like the story or not is irrelevant) Quests and characters.

Despite DC having more to do from a "im just dikein around the wasteland" point of view. the character interactions lacked depth. The explorations actually got tedious. You could damn near exlore every structure in FO3, and because sometimes you would fall upon something worthwhile, it compelled you to search some 3 story building they may actually have nothing but a stash of stimpacks.

Dont get me wrong I dont hate that, Very rich game worlds are the draw for bethesda, ive logged a ton of hours on Oblvion and FO3, literally just exploring. That probably wont be the case with new vegas, but im almost 30 hours in and still have a long active quest list and havent explored all the locations yet (nor have I advanced beyond the intial go to Novak for the main quest).

Although I fully back the invisible walls BS. Too many times I run into impassible invisible walls (which in some areas make no sense, because if I move 3 feet to my left I can go around it).

map scale size differences anyone?

No. RDR is presented on your screen as a 'square' but that the actual 'content' is all located in a kind of oblong shape. Similar to how FONV's map layout is concentrated. Just that opening your PipBoy and seeing an irregular shaped map didn't fit the display properly and was likely restricted by the design of FO3. So it had to be presented in this fashion.

I guess I am missing what the fuss is about. The perspective that the space is 'wasted' is because it is there. Like Obsidian should have just stuck something there for the hell of it? THIS is what FO3 is being lauded for? Useless content crapped onto a map to fill space? I don't see what the big deal is.

If you're also referring to maybe the countless empty rooms filled with nothing (see the Gray hotel), plus quite a few other locales filled with nothing of real value, then yes, I agree, it seems like either they were going for a more realistic approach, or they didn't have time to fill everything. Also, things seem bunched together in the Strip area of the main city, so when you try to find it again using your map, you're going to spend some time finding its icon...... Not very user friendly.

Well - this is too subjective to determine what offers 'nothing' and what has value. I want to see a place that fits within the story & world. If you (not saying this is true) are simply 'in it for the loot' then you won't care what the place is or about, but to find things to make your character 'stronger'.

These were all locations that were pretty useless in a story sense and weak for explorations reasons.
Broadcast Tower KB5
Broadcast Tower KT8
Broadcast Tower LP8
SatCom Array Complex
SatCom Array NN-03d
SatCom Array NW-05a
SatCom Array NW-07c
MDPL-05 Power Station
MDPL-13 Power Station
MDPL-16 Power Station
MDPL-21 Power Station
MDPL Mass Relay Station

They belonged in a 'military environment' to some point, but they weren't useful to further the 'plot' and were mostly 'copy/paste' environments to fill out the map.
These:
Anacostia Crossing Station
Arlington Utility
Arlington/Falls Church Metro
Arlington/Wasteland Metro
Bailey's Crossroads Metro (Operation: Anchorage)
Bethesda Underworks
Collapsed Car Tunnel
DCTA Tunnel 014-B Potomac
Dry Sewers
Dupont Circle Station
Fairfax Metro Station
Falls Church/Mason Dst Metro
Farragut West Station
Flooded Metro
Foggy Bottom Station
Franklin Metro Utility
Freedom Street Station
Friendship Heights
Georgetown/The Mall Metro
Hazmat Disposal Site L5
Irradiated Metro
Jury St. Station
Jury St. Tunnels
Marigold Station
Meresti Metro Station
Meresti Service Tunnel
Metro Access & Generator
Metro Central
Metro Junction
Museum Station
Northwest Seneca Station
Penn. Ave/Georgetown Metro
Penn. Ave/Seward Sq. Metro
Penn. Ave/The Mall Metro
Presidential Metro (Broken Steel)
Sewer (metro)
Sunken Sewer
Tenleytown/Friendship Station
Tepid Sewer
Vernon East/Takoma Park
Warrington Station
Warrington Tunnels

Were all similarly copy pasted environments. Some offered a little bit different than others, but overall became all-too-similar very early in the game.

This is before we get to what I just consider 'poorly concepted places':
Dukov's Place
Oasis
Andale
Girdershade
Wilhelm's Wharf
Little Lamplight

These are just a quick sampling of the places that make no sense in the world. They are missing a key ingredient for their raison d'etre: Where do they get their food & water? How do they protect themselves? What do they gain by being there? and - strictly for gaming reasons - what do they add to the player's experience?

There were a lot of needless places that were thrown in simply to take up space.

great post. I think people look back on all these locations with rose colored glasses, and don't remember that alot of them offered nothing as far as "content" as i keep seeing the phrase "they had all these buildings around full of content" So now game content is, fill a building with rubble and a couple of bad guys and some random (for Fo3 at least) vendor trash?

New Vegas has a trade off, you got a more "living" world in my opinion, complete with a more complex story, factions, faction standings, quests etc but less, random buildings to explore.

How ludicrous this argument has been I will quote from a previous poster I saw "I dont care if they just port buildings over from FO3 as long as I have something to explore" That sure sounds like a cry for "real" content. Um, if them just sticking FO3 buildings in new vegas satisfies you then just play FO3.

Fallout 3 have had more explorable areas like the metro system but Fallout 3 was a huge step away from Fallout 1 and 2. Mostly contained run and gun, kill everything because everything wants to kill you. In Fallout New Vegas there where more people in locations, people you could interact with. All the humans where part of a faction, even the raiders of Fallout New Vegas, the Fiends, could be talked to (inside the vault that is, idk if you can get your faction rep with them up to not attack you out side but "they are outside for a reason"). New Vegas offered more interaction with the areas that it gave you. I have been wondering around completing side quests that are a heck of a lot better then and I feel like doing the quests are more meaningful then they where in Fallout 3.
and there is forts and camps everywhere.

Personally I am glad there is not just big buildings copy and pasted through the wasteland. most of the bigger building boarded up and would not allow you inside anyways. and the metro system was a joke, i dreaded having to go in the because they where sooooo boring and everyone was the same. the right or left blocked off, lead to one area. and those map markers made up at least an 8th of the markers in Fallout 3.

The only quest that I'll give Fallout 3 of New Vegas is the drug drip one in the oasis, that was just amazing!!!

Over all I would rather play New Vegas over and over again due to the different ways you can go about everything, you can run and gun or you can just be a diplomat and work things out with speech or mix it up some. There where more places to use speech then there was in Fallout 3 as well.

And the BIGGEST importance, the Strip was a much bigger town then Rivit City. And much more enjoyable.

Fallout 3 Major "cities"
1. Megaton
2. Rivit City
3. Ten Penny Tower

New Vegas Major "Cities"
1. The Strip
2. The Camp
3. That one main NCR camp
4. Freeside
oh there where other but i dont have time to remember the names right now. But each of those cities are way better then Fallout 3s

Normally, I would never do this.

Right now, I had no interest in posting anything... I was just looking to see if there was a topic which had already inquired as to whether or not harvestable plants and herbs and crap regrow over time. It was never my intention to feel so compelled by a post, that I had to stop what I was doing and make a reply... but this particular post here has done precisely that.

I noted, that earlier, you went on about a 'quality over quantity' choice. You're right. Obsidian made that choice.

Note... OBSIDIAN made that choice... not me... or anyone else who bought the game. We got quality. Quality is good.


But where you went wrong... is to assume we ALL operate in that same 'either or' frame of mind. Some of us want Quality AND Quantity. And what you have essentially done here is insult the entire lot of us who aren't satisfied with a LITTLE bit of a good thing... especially when there could be more. I don't want anyone to get me wrong in any way, I -love- Fallout 3. A lot. Fallout 3 is an amazingly fun game for precisely the reason so many people seem to decry it. It's got a lot of things to kill me, a lot of things to explore and wander around, a great environment full of destruction and decay... and most of all... each place in that world feels at least vaguely unique. (They have similar styles... especially the Subways... but I -loved- the subways. They really do FEEL like service tunnels and utility access and all that crap. I love seeing my world blown to hell.)

Fallout: New Vegas blows away the quality of any given location I could want to explore. But what it lacks is random encounters... or the ability to walk into places which spawn high-level enemies with serious weapons and gear right away. It feels leveled and limited and -smaller- than the game we had before... and that just eats away at some folks. -Insulting- them by acting as if they should be GRATEFUL they got less, just because it was better, is equivalent to scolding a child for wanting MORE of their favorite food. It doesn't make sense.

You can -have- your opinion. But don't assume the rest of us are blind to reality or 'longing for Fallout 3' because we want more CONTENT.

What we are... are people who think differently than you. And that's our right. You have that right as well.

That being said... -do- plants and herbs and that lot respawn? >.>

Yes.

As for the rest of your post - Quality takes time & resources. Obsidian was on a shortened schedule to work within. I'm sure there were budget constraints as well. It would have been nothing for them to import resources (copy buildings) from FO3 and scatter them throughout the wastes, but that would have been a cheap & obvious way to fill the game. We'd have a whole different group of 'complainers'.

I have lived in the Desert SW of the US for more almost 30 years (man I am getting old) and have driven to most of the places that one would want to drive to. In between those places was a lot of nothing. Well, the animals and plants are something, but you know what I mean. So, if I was to play a game set in the desert in and around Las Vegas, or New Vegas and it was crammed full of locations and places to go to, yes, I would be unhappy with that because it gives me no sense of being in a desert.

Walking up to Jacobstown I remembered thinking how real it felt walking up that road with nothing on it. I really felt like I was in the middle of nowhere. In FO3, I could always see the next location on the horizon. However, in the Eastern US, around the DC area, you can't get away from civilization, buildings and infrastructure. So, I would expect a game set in the DC area to have more places to explore and a game set in the desert to have less. Anything else would require further suspension of disbelief.

Well you are surely right about one thing Innawerkz. It is subjective when it comes how one views a location.

I may like a location and consider it worthwhile for the following reasons.

Is related to the mq or any minor sidequest.
Scavenging for ammo and rations - water, food, anything. (I used hardcoe mode mod in FO3)
Has something to tell usually by holodiscs that contain an unrelated, god forsaken story of someone who was living there.
Unique weapons/loot that will make my character stronger.
Is just plain beautiful (in a post apocalyptic sense).

And many other things but mostly these for locations like sewers, metros aka less important locations.

Most of the places you mentioned added a whole lot to my exploring and/or rp experience of the game. Also all locations can't be and need not be usefull - in a story sense.
In addition almost all of these locations are linked with quests, sometimes more than one, some have unique loot, everyone of them are designed differently.

Even the metros which could be considered copy/paste were not boring for me. Some were full of traps, some others were packed with ghouls, some had hidden sections, others had npcs that were hiding in them or enemies bases and creatures nests.
Maybe a plus, was that i had mods that made ammo scarce, repair mods, hardcoe mods and most of the junk items, food and water had a use for me.
Still i am sure i would appreciate every single god forsaken metro station or building that might have for example 10 ghouls and a warehouse filled with rations and ammo even if it had nothing to do with a quest and the funny thing is most of the locations you mentioned have plenty of quests each.

So location value seems pretty subjective indeed.

Colonel I loled at your post, well said.

CCNA with a little imagination the feeling of emptiness could be retained while adding plenty of content. For example, its been around 300 years "since our age and time". What could have happened that will be totally believable and not spoil the emptiness of Nevada until/during/after a nuclear holocaust? As the concept of fallout dictates, vaults, bunkers etc. Also hidden caves, hideouts, secret military underground bases or the area 51 everyone is talking about. I dont expect the dc infastructure.

I'd rather have even "filler" places than have 1/3 of the map totally unused. At least there's *something* there.

And as mentioned, lack of random encounters are pretty much my only other problem with NV; there simply isn't as much to do while running from one place to another, and I never feel threatened running around at higher levels because the CL hit squads come very infrequently. In FO3 you'd plow into some Radscorpions or a Mutant/Enclave patrol every minute or so.

I get the impression that FNV is like FO3 with a ton less content, and the lack thereof is being attributed as quality to the remainder present?

Definitely. Glad we agree. It is unfortunate that all of the map couldn't be used effectivley to suit everyones tastes. I can only hope that DLC will expand the maps use. I like the thought that if Obsidian doesn't have to spend to much time redesiigning the game world (like Point Lookout or The Pitt)t that they can add more locations to go through and maintain a similarly high level of quality storytelling.

Last post for two weeks for me! Flying to Cancun tomorrow morning.

Hasta luego!

Chesticles the quality has improved, and we are getting greedy here so that we may get something more in the future




Lucky ******!! Have a nice trip

But....but....that's exactly what they did...

Same textures
Same soundclips (really, walking past a metal radio antennae sounds EXACTLY like walking past a decrepid aircraft carrier??)
Same elements (posters advertising the planetarium in D.C.??)
Many of the same armors, clothing, creatures, weapons, items, etc.

I understand there should be few things the same... A vault in NV should be similar to a Vault in D.C., but Jeez, did they have to make it so obvious? and I swear, there are times I'm walking through a building going, "dang, this is a just a modified version of so-and-so building from Fallout 3!"