Exactly.

A good game is one that you have to invest time into and master.

A bad game is one that anyone can beat in a week after just picking it up.

A creative game is one that takes you off guard and makes you learn the unique mechanics and style before you can get good at it.

A hackneyed game is one that anyone who is used to the generic FPS controls and gameplay can jump into and master in less than an hour.

IMO, of course.

http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=OblivionMods.Detail&id=2838.. an essential mod for me

What? Why are we assuming that Bethesda is so incompetent that they can't write good NPC directions while also having optional quest markers? Plenty of other games have managed it, there's no reason that Bethesda couldn't. As for it being "necessary," no it isn't. But, again, there are plenty of features in the game that aren't necessary. Heck, why do we even have difficulty sliders? Does other players' ability to, heaven forbid, decrease the game's difficulty affect your enjoyment? Does the existence of that feature lessen your experience?

The simple fact is that many people do NOT enjoy having to play hide and seek with quest objectives, either because they flat out don't like that kind of gameplay or they're new to gaming in general. Games are more complicated than ever these days and it's a shame that any time a developer tries to accomidate the newcomers they have to deal with the so called "hardcoe" crowed calling them out on it. Where exactly do you expect new gamers to start, if not your beloved "hardcoe" game? Does it make any sense at all for a developer to alienate potential players based on how experienced they are, especially when it's all focused on a feature that could easily made into something that's toggleable instead of forced?

And saying that something being optional is an infringement on another player's play style is so wrong it's unbelievable. If one side doesn't want it then all they ahve to do is not use it. Bad ingame directions is its own issue and should be independant on the exitence of quest markers when talking about any competent game developer. The only time it'll be an issue is when the developers get "lazy," in which case we'll have far more problems in the game than this.


Your children's book comparison is also far off. We're not talking about toning down the game's content or censoring the subject matter, we're talking about an optional toggle to make it easier for people to find quest objectives. That doesn't even come close to making the game into the gaming equivilent of a children's book.


The closest thing I've seen to an actual argument for why it shouldn't be ingame as a toggleable option is the whole "the ingame directions will suffer" thing, yet since other developers of quest based games with their own "quest marker system" have managed to maintain good quest directions, this really isn't something worth worrying about as long as you still trust Bethesda to make a quality game.

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Fun fact: Portal was one of the first games my grilfriend ever played that wasn't a 2D platformer (and the first with a first person perspective), and she beat it in about 14 hours play time (stretched across about 5 days). Is that one creative and unique enough for you?

I think that I agree with you guys on the DLC part. There is no reason to make it DLC. Essentially what you guys just suggested was. For example; we designed Bruma, but we don't know if we want people to play there so were going to just release it later. That's silly among many other things. Now that's not to be confused with something such as SI being developed at the same time as Oblivion then just being withheld so it can be charged as DLC.

Another thing is that you cant withhold something like the quest markers from the game and make them DLC. Even if it is free, not all people have access to internet to download. And its just silly in the first place. So cut out the idea of DLC.



Ehra, you have a point. The difficulty slider is a great thing, I personally always play with it on 100. But I dont fret over it when other people play on a different setting. But you can't say the same thing over the quest markers. The difficulty slider might not be necessary but the quest markers would be. It would take out of the game for people who don't wish to experience it. Although its a minor thing to toggle them off, its essentially the same as telling people who don't like power attacks to just not use them. Well yes they can decide to not use them but the choice to is still there. I think the Devs should just design something that works universally. In games less things to toggle is usually better.

~Regards, Wolf-Lord

Never heard of portal. But I doubt i'd like it if it can be finished in 14 hours.

I'm not describing universal standards. I'm just describing my own.

I'm not gonna spend 60 dollars on a video game that'll be collecting dust only after 5 days.

I don't think that really would be the same thing. Telling someone to just not to use power attacks wouldn't change:

1) Enemies still would.

2) The combat system was developed and balanced around the fact that power attacks exist.

Like I said in my previous monster of a post, the only way it would be comparable is if the NPC given directions were so poor that the quest markers were almost required. And I've played enough games that have had "quest markers" and good directions to know that the two aren't dependent on eachother.

I would say that a more accurate comparison, imo, is the "always use best attack" feature in Morrowind. I don't know about anyone else, but I always had that toggled on because I didn't enjoy dancing around in combat to do my best damage (which is strange, because I enjoy Oblivion's combat). And I would have a hard time believing the existence of that toggle removed from anyone's enjoyment of the game.

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I strongly urge you to look into it. One of the most clever, funny, enjoyable, and innovative games I've played in recent memory. And it wasn't a full priced game, so it also has that going for it. It's a puzzle based FPS that's, at the name implies, about portals.

Its funny you mention that because it depends. Thats definitely a feature I loved. I thought it was really unique that they labeled each weapon depending on how you swing it. Which is extremely realistic. And they did a superb job. For example the spear did very little damage except with thrust. Now I ussually played with it on becasue I agree I didn't care for the dancing.

However, the same cant be said for the quest markers. The NPCs don't need them. Power attacks yes I understand that and where you came from. But NPCs are NPCs. If a guard wants to chase you just because its an AI he knows where you are. As far as game play though they have no need for them so there shouldn't be a toggle button. If it was a power attack though I could understand that. I just chose that as an example though.

~Regards, Wolf-Lord

What if the quest markers were turned off by default, but there was an option somewhere to turn them on? And what if the whole game was tuned with the assumption that you don't use quest markers? (for example, NPCs would give directions or small maps instead of saying "go to Huckleberry Cave" and just letting the quest marker tell you where it is).

To me that would be fine. It means the game is suggesting and urging the player to not use the quest markers, but if it's just too frustrating he has an out.

The same goes for every feature they put in Oblivion that makes the game treat you like a retard. I'm OK if there's an option to turn it on, as long as the game doesn't FORCE you to use it and doesn't ASSUME you rely on it.

That would be alright, just as long as quests wouldn't be made assuming you were going to use markers, like they were in Oblivion. OB would have been next to impossible w/o quest markers because the NPCs give hardly any, or extremely vague, instructions. They need to make that aspect a whole lot more like Morrowind.

I definitely agree that the quality of ingame directions needs to be maintained (and improved relative to Oblivion)) regardless of if markers are or aren't in the game. And I think making the quest marker toggle off by default would be an excellent solution.

It would actually quote on quote be impossible. One strong example is in SI. When you have to go anywhere. Haskill is just like go to the halls of the tormented and do this. Well unless youve explored a lot of SI then you have no clue where to go. But on your map is just a bright glowing arrow saying go here.

Now if say instead of a quest marker it just highlighted a region of the map and your journal said something along the lines of "Ive been told such and such is in this general area, perhaps I should travel there and investigate any nearby caves." Then that would be helpful. I would still prefer Morrowinds elaborate directions, but the way I just described would suffuse.

~Regards, Wolf-Lord

I also agree with this. It doesn't necessarily have to pinpoint the exact location, a visual cue showing the general area you should be looking would also be fine. Something to show if you're on the right track.

I'm thinking maybe a highlighted area. Like what ever color they pick. Just shade that area with it. Naturally I think a circle but they could actually outline an area. I mean to make it more realistic. Although if someone was giving you directions they could just draw a crude circle on your map in like red. And when I say crude I mean the circle where its not circular and the ends don't meet etc.

~Regards, Wolf-Lord

Has everyone forgotten, "hold on, let me mark it on your map."

Thats different though. They place it if its like a town or stronghold. Morrowind didn't mark caves and stuff. And although you have a very strong point, those yellow blocks on your map did no justice to where it was unless it was like a town. If it was like some mine that huge box was the same size as the block for a town. So yes you can travel to that block but you still had to find it. And in things like Telavanni towers and stuff. Typically the damn door wasn't at the base of it. Lol. In Oblivion if its on your map you could just fast travel right up to the front door.

~Regards, Wolf-Lord

My thoughts on the compass have probably been said already by others, but I'll just reiterate anyway.

In Oblivion, that annoying compass was kind of needed since there were no real landmarks to go by, and you didn't get any real directions from quest-givers. In Morrowind, it was different. You had very interesting, and memorable, landmarks and places, that would often be referred to in dialouge. You would get adequate directions, and if you got lost, you might just find something interesting over that next hill.

But seriously, Beth, give me my landmarks and directions back. I know I'm a guy, and I hate asking for directions IRL, but it makes games so much more fun.

When I look back at it, there were really only two or three things that I had a really hard time finding in Morrowind.

And that was due to not being able to see the entrance physically, even though it's right there on my map. They did a good job at concealing entrances with the environment in Morrowind, but went overboard, sometimes. It was the opposite in Oblivion; they were too conservative.

Highlighting the area of the map or putting a circle where the location you have to go is wouldn't be a very good alternative if the locations are as spread out as they are in Oblivion. The highlighted or circled area would have to be pretty large in order to prevent someone from going to that area, looking for a building and finding that the very first building they saw was the location.

Well as Hamsmagoo said they did an extremely well job at hiding things in Morrowind. Elven ruins all had easy find doors. Caves seem to always be a small hill surrounded by foliage. Towns were well towns. In Morrowind a cave entrance could be anywhere. Daedric ruin doors were usually anywhere. Up high, down low. Maybe the real entrance was through a cave, or under water. The entrance to the ice castle was hidden really well. Dwemer ruin doors were behind spheres. Hell if you didn't know the sphere opened then forget looking for the crank lever. Telavanni tower entrances might be over the next four hills. You just didn't know. They did such a great job.

~Regards, Wolf-Lord

Edit: I forgot I had something to say about xXAntibodyXx's post. Lol Well In TES V I think were hoping it wont all be as wide spread in it. In Morrowind they're were plenty of pointless caves and such. Yes in Oblivion each area seemed to be dominated by one interior. I'm hoping we get a lot more of those pointless caves.

~Regards, Wolf-Lord

Oblivion seemed to be a bit too self-conscious about breaking up its interior cells. You literally had houses that used one cell for the first floor and a different one for the second. I highly doubt it was for the sake of performance, either.

Not to stray too far off topic, but since you mention pointless caves.

There's a book in Morrowind, Chance's Folly. If you read that book, it describes events that take place in a certain cave. I actually searched for that cave, found it, and saw Chance's corpse inside. And took her loot!

And I was in a dungeon for the main quest and found a note. It was written by some bandit telling his team to meet at a different tomb. I located that tomb and found the corpses of the bandits inside.

That's one of the things I missed most from Morrowind. Rewards for taking it slow and taking in the world around me.

I think it had something to do with the dynamic AI. I don't think they wanted the game to slow down because all the people actually had to perform their actions vs if they're in another cell they're actions wouldn't have to be physically done. The computer just had to make sure if you loaded that cell they were where they belonged. Make sense? But yes they did seem to break it down to a lot of small cells. And thinking of it, I didn't care for it simply because of the loading times. Even if they're only five seconds, it adds up fast.

~Regards, Wolf-Lord
Edit: After this Ill get back on topic. Id hate for this thread to get closed. But your right Hamsmagoo. I remember all those little non quest quest. You often enough found dead adventurers or things like you described. I can't recall finding any of this in Oblivion.

~Regards, Wolf-Lord

The small cells seem to be a hit and miss thing. Some areas, notably houses, seem to have small cells while other areas, notably dungeons, have larger cells, which leads me to believe that you are right about dynamic AI.

I was overly obnoxious earlier, specifically in this thread, and I am sorry for that, but as someone who has found those things mentioned in the second part of your post, I believe you should know about some of them:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Interesting_Places

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Easter_eggs

Specifically today, I found a dead troll under a bridge with wine and a poorly-written note explaining why the troll committed suicide and I found an Orc adventurer in a cave who told me he was seeking treasures for King Gortwog and Orsinium.

I've also found Dive Rock, Vilverin(explore both to see what I mean),

Exploration results in some interesting finds in Oblivion, though perhaps not as often as in Morrowind.

IMO
The only map markers in game should be ones you place yourself.
The compass shouldn't have faded fast travel icons to show you where there's an "undiscovered" dungeon.

Having played Fallout 3 for an ungodly amount of time and exploring pretty much every nook and cranny of the map, I'm very confident Bethesda will bring that back in TES V, as they did that a lot in Fallout 3. I don't remember the instances well enough to list them but that's one of the things they improved on in FO3 from Oblivion.