That's not the point. Halo is an action game, and Oblivion is an action game too, the point is that in this age, deep games (such as Elder Scrolls) are increasingly becoming more and more shallow.

Indeed. TES was my only retreat from action, before Oblivion.

I mean, how would you feel if Halo rarely involved action, and turned into a game similar to early TES? Taking away the action is the same as prioritising the action in TES.

And if you would read what I've previously explained, you would know that I already said that NPC given directions need to be improved regardless of it there is or isn't any quest markers added. The people who would implement the quest marker system are not necessarily the same people who would be writing NPC dialogue, so this isn't a case of "either/or." I'd say the heavy focus on voice acting is most likely a larger detriment towards NPCs giving detailed directions than the existence of a ingame quest help system. That and the fact that NPCs wander around around a lot more than they did in Morrowind.

This is nothing like someone saying coop would be easy to add because quest markers are already a part of the series. The only thing being "added" is changing it into a toggle instead of being forced.

Halo= linear pure action

Oblivion= linear pure action

Pardon me, but I find your statement to be very disingenuous. I'm not gonna say you're lying when you claim to not notice any similarity between Halo and Oblivion, it's just that I don't believe you for a second.

@Ehra: yeah, you're right there's no good argument against the quest marker if it's toggleable and there's an alternative.

But the Elderscrolls has never been about just rushing to your destination so, if you want a quest pointer to begin with, you totally miss the point.

Absolutely not. I want the quest pointer so that, when/if I have trouble finding something ingame, I don't have to use out of game resources to find the objective. The existence of the quest markers does NOT prevent me from chilling out, exploring, or immersing myself in my character. If I want to "rush to my destination" while doing a quest, then maybe that's because I (or my character) feels it would be unprofessional to tell an NPC I will do something for them then take a month until I actually get it done? Don't presume to know how other people play and don't assume that your way is somehow more "correct" than anyone else's.

And Oblivion is NOT "pure linear action." There is still quest dialogue and you still have to use persuasion to get them to like you enough to give certain information. You can still run off and do things not related to the main quest. You can still just stroll around the country side and pick flowers. Heck, you can still even choose to not even use the quest markers by accepting a quest you don't plan on completing for awhile, setting that as your active quest, then doing something else. You can still customize your character to fill any role you want, although there are slightly less choices this time around (Medium Armor, Spears, Axes, and such). Yes there are differences, but Oblivion still shares FAR more with Morrowind than it does Halo.

No. Getting lost did NOT add to the game. It was boring, and it wasted time. That said, I didn't like the easy quest marker either. Tons of quests in Oblivion could be completed without the slightest thought as to what you were doing. And the problem with simply removing the quest arrow was that you wouldn't know where to go at all, because no one gives directions, so for the most part you have to use it.

What we need is clear directions (or hints to where we could get directions) to where we need to go in a quest. This forces you to think, it's fun, but it doesn't hold your hand. You have to listen to what people actually have to say.

I can play Oblivion the same way I play Halo. I can play through all of the main quest + Fighters/Mage as if I was playing halo. This is because the quests amounted to go here, kill x, grab x, come back. At level one, a bumbling idiot with a rusty iron dagger can defeat the worst that Dagon himself can send against him. Monsters whose life meant fighting and training to kill idiots like you. You can go through the ENTIRE mage guild questline without casting any spells. You don't need to know any magic whatsoever. But everyone agrees, you should be the one influencing magical policy at the end.

I cannot do the same with Morrowind. That will get me killed. Or they'll say I'm not even cut out to even be part of their organization.

The only way you can make it through the main quest of the mages guild without spells is if you use spell scrolls. Remove spell scrolls = better mages guild. I can't figure out how the devs thought spell scrolls were a good idea.

Hell, why even have a mages guild if you have spell scrolls? Just get a few scribes to mass produce them, then nobody needs a mage. All you need is paper. If you memorize the words, you don't even need the paper. I'm not even sure why scrolls are one use only, your grimoire doesn't disappear after you cast a spell from it.

Oblivion is weak in rpg elements.

- Oblivion didn't have that much dialog options, and even those that had would have both choices with same results.

- The main quest, city quests and guild quests (exept for thieves guild) will mostly sent you to a dungeon with monsters or to kill someone.

- All spell schools was only to aid you in battle.

- There was basicly no puzzles.

- Weapons didn't have differences in attacks, basicly its just "Pick a weapon and start killing".

- Fast travlel was supposed to be travelling, that means that getting ambushed and diseased should have been included. Fast travel should be called "teleporting".

Yeah during that quest in the mage guild, they have a box with pretty much every spell scroll you'll need.

Exactly. That's the point.

What made Morrowind so great is exactly that. The inability to do everything with every character. You cannot do that kind of thing in Morrowind because that's not what Morrowind is meant for. And to accomdate to that kind of thing in Oblivion was betraying the original fanbase to make more money off the more populous casual community.

And it's not the idea of the quest marker so much as the notion that the Elderscrolls should be more accessible to casual gamers, when it is NOT a casual game. You can't please both demographics when both demographics are polar opposites.

If you don't want to take your time wandering and exploring, then don't just turn on the quest marker... play an action game.

@Ehra: I still don't understand why you think Elderscrolls should overhaul itself to become what you describe, when there are already tons of games out that do exactly what you describe.

The Elderscrolls should remain a niche game and if you want to rush into the battle as opposed to explore and take your time, then don't pick up an RPG to begin with, duh.

Actually I just looked at the mages guild quests in Morrowind, and they seem to give you the scrolls every time you need to cast a spell as well. Just another spell free mages guild.

Please show me any post I've said the series should be "overhauled" into something else. All I've talked about is the quest markers. Yes, I want to make the series "more accessible to casual gamers." The quest markers is how I want that done, I've never even mentioned changing anything else. You're countering imaginary arguments that, as far as I can tell, no one has made. Certainly not me.

Try advancing without casting anything.(I'd expect paying for training to include casting in it)

In Morrowind they actually taught you spells as you advanced. I don't recall any of that in Oblivion.

~Regards, Wolf-Lord

Maybe, but if there's no quest that requires a spell to be cast, it's all academic. So you have to pass the quizzes in that scenario, but never apply the knowledge.

Wizard's Fury. Thankfully.



I don't think the guys in morrowind would agree with you if you just said "Hey guys I can summon and control a golden saint. Just take my word for it." The mage's guild seemed to be more of a "Discover knowledge, charge for services" sort of thing than a "Train you to be death lords" sort of thing anyways. Unless there's necromancers involved. Then you of course switch to the latter immediately, foregoing all rational thought to make sure it happens.


Oddly enough, I think the mage's guild has always been in the "Discover knowledge, charge for services" line of work until Oblivion. Daggerfall's quests were helping out scholars in dungeons, retrieving alchemical ingredients, fixing screwups by other initiates, and aiding the public with magical services.

But then it is the point, because Oblivion is no more pure action than Morrowind or Daggerfall.



But oblivion is not linear pure action, that is the point. You don't have to do anything in Oblivion.



Actually in daggerfall, you pretty much just rushed to the destination. That is really the only way to get there.

To be fair, you don't have to do anything in halo. It's a bit boring, but you don't have to. When you choose to do something, it is linear.

Did you read his post? Making the game "more accessible to casual gamers" IS overhauling the game into something else. Casual games, and the non-casual games TES has always been are complete opposites. You can't provide for both gamers, no matter how hard you try. It's impossible.

Bethesda should carry on providing for the gamers that got them to where they are. I buy TES games, because I enjoy the non-casualness of them. I don't want my favourite game series to devolve into another dumb "casual" game. If you want to play a casual game, you shouldn't play an RPG. ROLE PLAYING games are all about ROLE PLAYING. I would expect a role playing game to involve living another life, and that isn't something that should appeal to a casual gamer.

If you enjoy casual gaming, go play an action game, or any series that has always, and is supposed to appeal to casual gamers.

The idea of a collection of Mages, Sorcerers, and assorted Mystics pooling their resources and talents for the purpose of research and public charity was a revolutionary concept in the early years of the Second Era. The only organization then closest in aim and structure to what we know today as the Mages Guild was the Psijic Order of the Isle of Artaeum. At the time, magic was something to be learned by individuals, or at most within intimate covens. Mages were, if not actually hermits, usually quite solitary.

The Psijic Order served the rulers of Summurset Isle [sic] as counselors, and chose its members through a complex, ritualized method not understood by outsiders. Its purposes and goals likewise went unpublished, and detractors attributed the worst evils as the source of the Order's power. Actually, the religion of the old Order could be described as ancestor worship, an increasingly unfashionable philosophy in the Second Era.

When Vanus Galerion, a Psijic of Artaeum and student of the famed Iachesis, began collecting magic-users from around Summurset Isle, he attracted the animosity of all. He was operating out of the urban center of Firsthold, and there was a common (and not entirely unfounded) attitude that magical experiments should be conducted only in unpopulated areas. Even more shocking, Galerion proposed to make magical items, potions, and even spells available to any member of the general public who could afford to pay. No longer was magic to be limited either to the aristocracy or intelligentsia.

Galerion was brought before Iachesis and the King of Firsthold, Rilis XII, and made to state the intentions of the fraternity he was forming. The fact that Galerion's speech to Rilis and Iachesis was not recorded for posterity is doubtless a tragedy, though it does afford opportunity for historians to amuse one another with speculation about the lies and persuasions Galerion might have used to found the ubiquitous organization. The charter, at any rate, was approved.

Almost immediately after the Guild was formed, the question of security had to be addressed. The Isle of Artaeum did not require force of arms to shield it from invaders -- when the Psijic Order does not wish someone to land on the Isle, it and all its inhabitants simply become insubstantial. The new Mages Guild, by contrast, had to hire guards. Galerion soon discovered what the Tamrielan nobility has known for thousands of years: Money alone does not buy loyalty. The knightly Order of the Lamp was formed the following year.

Like a tree from an acorn, the Mages Guild grew branches all over Summurset Isle [sic] and gradually the mainland of Tamriel. There are numerous records of superstitious or sensibly fearful rulers forbidding the Guild in their domains, but their heirs or heirs' heirs eventually recognized the wisdom of allowing the Guild free rein. The Mages Guild has become a powerful force in Tamriel, a dangerous foe if a somewhat disinterested ally. There have been only a few rare incidents of the Mages Guild actually becoming involved in local political struggles. On these occasions, the Guild's participation has been the ultimate decider in the conflict.

As begun by Vanus Galerion, the Mages Guild as an institution is presided over by a supreme council of six Archmagisters. Each Guildhall is run by a Guildmagister, assisted by a twofold counsel, the Master of Incunabula and the Master at Arms. The Master of Incunabula presides over an additional counsel of two mages, the Master of Academia and the Master of the Scrye. The Master at Arms also has a counsel of two, the Master of Initiates and the Palatinus, the leader of the local chapter of the Order of the Lamp.

One need not be a member of the Mages Guild to know that this carefully contrived hierarchy is often nothing more than a chimera. As Vanus Galerion himself said bitterly, leaving Tamriel to travel to other lands, “The Guild has become nothing more than an intricate morass of political infighting.”

~Regards, Wolf-Lord

To get back on topic.

I'd kind of like if maybe we got a mish mash on the compass pointer thing.

Maybe make it toggleable. But you aren't going to get a clear direction on the pointer until you ask a few people for directions. (Something like STALKER's PDA stash locations. There's a general circle in the area they're located in, and specific directions on where it is inside the circle.)

A while back, I was listening to my Halo-playing friends brag about all of the skillful and devious techniques they use to frag their enemies. I told them that that was all well and good, but that I preferred games that force you to think. "Those mindless action games are fun," I said, "but they just don't match up to Morrowind when it comes to forcing you to exercise your brain."

Of course, they all wanted to know what sets Morrowind apart from mainstream action games such as Oblivion (yes, they too consider Oblivion an action game). So, I told them. I said, "In Morrowind, you have to find things, and the only tools you have to aid you in your search are some fairly decent written directions and a map."

They were awed. Imagine trying to perform something as complex as following written directions and a map! They found the concept quite intimidating. "Sherlock Holmes is only fiction," they said. "It isn't fair to expect players to regularly execute Holmsian feats of mental agility." Then the bare, cold truth dawned upon them.

"We had thought that the quest markers in Oblivion were just a convenience," they said, "But we were wrong! How could we have known? How could we ever have imagined?"

With their horrible realization, they each headed home, and I have not spoken with them since.

I did not read the full tread so ill just respond to the OP.

yes i have used the compas here and there.

Some times i just jump into the game for 10 minutes and i wanted to do something before exiting the game.

thats why i used. same with the jurnal.

if ill change anything for TES V. would be:

1- You shoud be able to turn off the quest marker and the compas.

2-the compas should the a little thing that points north in the top right of your screen with a small minimap that shows you pereption field (how big that mini map is), view field (where are you facing),
(the perseption field coud be afected by any number of things detect life spells showing dots in the map, or sneak skill showing animals and secrets,stuff like that, etc.)

3-the world map shoud be secret till yoou find books, maps, people to tell you more about the world.

4-fast travel youd be is the hardest thing for me to say i dont want it. its true that i thing is like cheating. there shoud be hubs travel. that you pay a mall fee.

Did you read MY post? Because the ONLY thing I want done to appeal to the casual gamers is to keep quest markers which he himself even said he would be ok with as long as they were optional and the NPC given directions are good enough that they're not necessary, which I have also agreed with.

Saying I'm trying to overhaul the series into something it's not is flat out false because quest markers are already a part of the series. All I'm arguing for is to make it optional instead of forced. I've not argued for anything else to be done to make the game more "casual friendly."

So, once again, if you guys want to actually discuss this then reply to what I'm actually saying instead of what you're imagining me to be saying. My post flat out said that all I am talking about is making quest markers optional, no other changes (other than improving the NPC given quest directions).