Lacking that RPG feeling... : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:16 am

Exactly. That's the point.

What made Morrowind so great is exactly that. The inability to do everything with every character. You cannot do that kind of thing in Morrowind because that's not what Morrowind is meant for. And to accomdate to that kind of thing in Oblivion was betraying the original fanbase to make more money off the more populous casual community.

Hehehe, I remember before oblivion was released how everyone was saying "In morrowind you can be a jack of all trades it ruins my immersion!". Good memories

Anyways I hated the quest compass, I think aside from the level scaling it was the biggest contributor to what made me shelve oblivion after a week. Everything about the game lacked challenge and had no way to create a sense of adventure, I felt like I was just following my compass. I ended up modding my compass out a little while ago when i reinstalled oblivion... but just because of how the game was designed it still doesn't work that well.

I really hope the compass and markers are left out of the next TES cos I for one want to get lost in my sandbox.

» Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:32 am

The idea of a collection of Mages, Sorcerers, and assorted Mystics pooling their resources and talents for the purpose of research and public charity was a revolutionary concept in the early years of the Second Era. The only organization then closest in aim and structure to what we know today as the Mages Guild was the Psijic Order of the Isle of Artaeum. At the time, magic was something to be learned by individuals, or at most within intimate covens. Mages were, if not actually hermits, usually quite solitary.

The Psijic Order served the rulers of Summurset Isle [sic] as counselors, and chose its members through a complex, ritualized method not understood by outsiders. Its purposes and goals likewise went unpublished, and detractors attributed the worst evils as the source of the Order's power. Actually, the religion of the old Order could be described as ancestor worship, an increasingly unfashionable philosophy in the Second Era.

When Vanus Galerion, a Psijic of Artaeum and student of the famed Iachesis, began collecting magic-users from around Summurset Isle, he attracted the animosity of all. He was operating out of the urban center of Firsthold, and there was a common (and not entirely unfounded) attitude that magical experiments should be conducted only in unpopulated areas. Even more shocking, Galerion proposed to make magical items, potions, and even spells available to any member of the general public who could afford to pay. No longer was magic to be limited either to the aristocracy or intelligentsia.

Galerion was brought before Iachesis and the King of Firsthold, Rilis XII, and made to state the intentions of the fraternity he was forming. The fact that Galerion's speech to Rilis and Iachesis was not recorded for posterity is doubtless a tragedy, though it does afford opportunity for historians to amuse one another with speculation about the lies and persuasions Galerion might have used to found the ubiquitous organization. The charter, at any rate, was approved.

Almost immediately after the Guild was formed, the question of security had to be addressed. The Isle of Artaeum did not require force of arms to shield it from invaders -- when the Psijic Order does not wish someone to land on the Isle, it and all its inhabitants simply become insubstantial. The new Mages Guild, by contrast, had to hire guards. Galerion soon discovered what the Tamrielan nobility has known for thousands of years: Money alone does not buy loyalty. The knightly Order of the Lamp was formed the following year.

Like a tree from an acorn, the Mages Guild grew branches all over Summurset Isle [sic] and gradually the mainland of Tamriel. There are numerous records of superstitious or sensibly fearful rulers forbidding the Guild in their domains, but their heirs or heirs' heirs eventually recognized the wisdom of allowing the Guild free rein. The Mages Guild has become a powerful force in Tamriel, a dangerous foe if a somewhat disinterested ally. There have been only a few rare incidents of the Mages Guild actually becoming involved in local political struggles. On these occasions, the Guild's participation has been the ultimate decider in the conflict.

As begun by Vanus Galerion, the Mages Guild as an institution is presided over by a supreme council of six Archmagisters. Each Guildhall is run by a Guildmagister, assisted by a twofold counsel, the Master of Incunabula and the Master at Arms. The Master of Incunabula presides over an additional counsel of two mages, the Master of Academia and the Master of the Scrye. The Master at Arms also has a counsel of two, the Master of Initiates and the Palatinus, the leader of the local chapter of the Order of the Lamp.

One need not be a member of the Mages Guild to know that this carefully contrived hierarchy is often nothing more than a chimera. As Vanus Galerion himself said bitterly, leaving Tamriel to travel to other lands, “The Guild has become nothing more than an intricate morass of political infighting.”

~Regards, Wolf-Lord

Thank you for ending the argument because there were like 10 to 15 posts about it.And guys ehria(or something I forget the name)said to get better directions from npcs and to make quest markers toggable and some of you say you might force yourselves but there is a way around that,all they need to do is add three options that you can decide when installing(or playing for the first time on consoles because on the 360 you don't install)1.make qustmarkers toggable? 2.permanetly turn off questmarkers? 3.permanetly turn on questmarkers?,so how is that making it casual?,all the option is doing is allowing hardcoe and casual gamers to both have fun.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:36 pm

Exactly. That's the point.

What made Morrowind so great is exactly that. The inability to do everything with every character. You cannot do that kind of thing in Morrowind because that's not what Morrowind is meant for. And to accomdate to that kind of thing in Oblivion was betraying the original fanbase to make more money off the more populous casual community.

And it's not the idea of the quest marker so much as the notion that the Elderscrolls should be more accessible to casual gamers, when it is NOT a casual game. You can't please both demographics when both demographics are polar opposites.

If you don't want to take your time wandering and exploring, then don't just turn on the quest marker... play an action game.

@Ehra: I still don't understand why you think Elderscrolls should overhaul itself to become what you describe, when there are already tons of games out that do exactly what you describe.

The Elderscrolls should remain a niche game and if you want to rush into the battle as opposed to explore and take your time, then don't pick up an RPG to begin with, duh.

wow who died and let you decide what defines casual gamers?

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:17 pm

I did not read the full tread so ill just respond to the OP.

yes i have used the compas here and there.

Some times i just jump into the game for 10 minutes and i wanted to do something before exiting the game.

thats why i used. same with the jurnal.

if ill change anything for TES V. would be:

1- You shoud be able to turn off the quest marker and the compas.

2-the compas should the a little thing that points north in the top right of your screen with a small minimap that shows you pereption field (how big that mini map is), view field (where are you facing),
(the perseption field coud be afected by any number of things detect life spells showing dots in the map, or sneak skill showing animals and secrets,stuff like that, etc.)

3-the world map shoud be secret till yoou find books, maps, people to tell you more about the world.

4-fast travel youd be is the hardest thing for me to say i dont want it. its true that i thing is like cheating. there shoud be hubs travel. that you pay a mall fee.

I really like the third one you mentioned. It would be really neat if you started the game with a map like Oblivions paper map. Then as you explore the map colors itself in like Morrowinds. As you go your automatically mark roads etc. If you talk to scouts or find old maps, it can add parts to your map.

~Regards, Wolf-Lord

» Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:03 am

To be fair, you don't have to do anything in halo. It's a bit boring, but you don't have to. When you choose to do something, it is linear.

Which is not like Oblivion. Even when quests are linear, depending on which character you've made, you have different tools to resolve the issue. Halo deals in missions, where each world is built around the mission (levels), and you can only be one kind of person with one kind of alignment.

» Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:04 am

I like the compass, but like everyone else, get rid of the map markers. I want to actually be able to read the journal and use the map that comes with the games. The journal should give you a direction and a physical feature as to where something or someone is located, for example, East of [insert city name, cave name, etc] next to the rock that looks like a/n [insert animal name].

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:48 pm

To be fair, you don't have to do anything in halo. It's a bit boring, but you don't have to. When you choose to do something, it is linear.

Yes you do the only other thing you can do instead of smashing brains(with your fist wtf) off is hiding or that forge thing but even the forge is used to make places where you can shoot mindlessly.

» Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:43 am

wow who died and let you decide what defines casual gamers?

A word of advice. Things are getting a little niggly in this topic. The moderators have it flagged as "keep an eye on" so please discuss sensibly and constructively without all the digs at each other.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:59 pm

Which is not like Oblivion. Even when quests are linear, depending on which character you've made, you have different tools to resolve the issue. Halo deals in missions, where each world is built around the mission (levels), and you can only be one kind of person with one kind of alignment.

We definitely played different games.(Or you're including mods) The one I played I was shoed into hating all necromancers permanently, and they hated me instantly too, even if I wasn't a mage. I was shoed into siding with the Fighters Guild over Blackwood whether I agreed with them or not. Lucien never wondered why I stopped completing assignments because they seemed fishy. I couldn't prevent the massacre of the hands even though I HAD EVIDENCE IMPLICATING THE TRAITOR WAS STANDING RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME. The final arena fight couldn't end in a stalemate if both of you refused to fight. I guess it just frustrates me when design forces obvious courses of action to be taken away from me. Thieves guild made sense. Nothing in there is glaringly ridiculous.

» Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:05 am

We definitely played different games.(Or you're including mods) The one I played I was shoed into hating all necromancers permanently, and they hated me instantly too, even if I wasn't a mage. I was shoed into siding with the Fighters Guild over Blackwood whether I agreed with them or not. Lucien never wondered why I stopped completing assignments because they seemed fishy. I couldn't prevent the massacre of the hands even though I HAD EVIDENCE IMPLICATING THE TRAITOR WAS STANDING RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME. The final arena fight couldn't end in a stalemate if both of you refused to fight. I guess it just frustrates me when design forces obvious courses of action to be taken away from me. Thieves guild made sense. Nothing in there is glaringly ridiculous.

I'm on xbox so no mods.

What do you mean you were shoed into hating necromancy?

But yeah we must have played different games, I've retrieved a mages staff, through stealing, or persuasion and wealth, depending on my playstyle and character. I've investigated the stealing of a painting where I choose to lie, although I could have let justice come through, or accuse the wrong person completely, again depending on my character. I helped a paranoid man with his conspiracies, either by killing his supposed enemies, or report his insanity to the guards, or simply cut ties off, and let him handle it himself. I actually found most of the dark brotherhood to give a lot of freedom to make choices. Not that I don't understand what you mean when you say that it frustrates you when design forces the obvious choice away, in morrowind I had to deliver a skirt to a warned insane sorcerer, she wanted me to try the skirt on, but I already knew that would be bad, so I just dropped the skirt on the floor, because I was only asked to deliver it. This was not a "intended" solution, and the quest did not complete.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:48 pm

All I'm arguing for is to make it optional instead of forced. I've not argued for anything else to be done to make the game more "casual friendly."

Yes, I want to make the series "more accessible to casual gamers."

:facepalm:

Also, optional isn't optional. If it's there, I'll have to use it. It' the way the game works, and I doubt Bethesda is willing to put aside olots of money for an optional feature. This is exactly the same as the Fast Travel arguments. Thos eof us against making it optional will give a bunch of reasons that it will detract from he game. Those of you who wan tit ill say "don't use it", as if it's a viable argument. :rolleyes:

» Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:39 am

A word of advice. Things are getting a little niggly in this topic. The moderators have it flagged as "keep an eye on" so please discuss sensibly and constructively without all the digs at each other.

This is about the time when I back out and go on my merry way.

Peace "RPG feeling" thread. I've already made my point. No reason to keep repeating it, angrily.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:44 pm

I'm on xbox so no mods.

What do you mean you were shoed into hating necromancy?

But yeah we must have played different games, I've retrieved a mages staff, through stealing, or persuasion and wealth, depending on my playstyle and character. I've investigated the stealing of a painting where I choose to lie, although I could have let justice come through, or accuse the wrong person completely, again depending on my character. I helped a paranoid man with his conspiracies, either by killing his supposed enemies, or report his insanity to the guards, or simply cut ties off, and let him handle it himself. I actually found most of the dark brotherhood to give a lot of freedom to make choices. Not that I don't understand what you mean when you say that it frustrates you when design forces the obvious choice away, in morrowind I had to deliver a skirt to a warned insane sorcerer, she wanted me to try the skirt on, but I already knew that would be bad, so I just dropped the skirt on the floor, because I was only asked to deliver it. This was not a "intended" solution, and the quest did not complete.

All necromancers hostile. All the time. I stole a mage's staff once too. It was my own. That way I wouldn't interfere with a theft I was going to do later. :bonk: (My sheogorath training is going along well, wouldn't you say?) I liked the dual methods for the DB, and there was a decent storyline to it, but there is one thing I liked about morrowind that wasn't in Oblivion. If there was a quest I didn't like, sometimes I really could refuse to do it and still progress in standing. Work for the guild in some other town. Don't want to perform writs in the Tong? Reclaim the sanguine items. Trebonius give you some ridiculously vague task? Ignore it and find someone else to assign you a task. Don't like the way the Fighters Guild is headed? See if anyone opposes the changes.

As for the morrowind quest there, you can also give the skirt to the slave there too. Not nice morally, but still possible.(You can cast calm on her afterwards to prevent her from killing the slave if you want) Considering you disobeyed a Telvanni councilor, I'm not surprised they wouldn't accept you having completed the quest. Therana's going to tell them she didn't get the skirt.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:34 pm

:facepalm:

Yes, and here's the rest of that post:

Yes, I want to make the series "more accessible to casual gamers." The quest markers is how I want that done, I've never even mentioned changing anything else.

Again, if you're going to reply to me then please reply to what I'm actually saying. All I want to change is making quest markers optional (they're already a part of the series, so if nothing were changed it would actually be worse for you than my proposal), trying to argue that I'm trying to change the series into something it's not is flat out false.

Also, optional isn't optional. If it's there, I'll have to use it. It' the way the game works, and I doubt Bethesda is willing to put aside olots of money for an optional feature. This is exactly the same as the Fast Travel arguments. Thos eof us against making it optional will give a bunch of reasons that it will detract from he game. Those of you who wan tit ill say "don't use it", as if it's a viable argument. :rolleyes:

The ONLY reason given for how it would be detrimental to the game is the whole "NPC directions are bad" argument, which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with quest markers. I've played plenty of games that have a quest tracking system while also having perfectly good ingame directions. Going by your "optional isn't optional" argument, I guess that means everyone in Morrowind was forced to use the "always use best attack" feature, huh?

"Don't use it" IS a viable argument as long as there ingame alternatives (in this case, it's directions given by NPCs).

» Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:38 am

:facepalm:

Also, optional isn't optional. If it's there, I'll have to use it. It' the way the game works, and I doubt Bethesda is willing to put aside olots of money for an optional feature. This is exactly the same as the Fast Travel arguments. Thos eof us against making it optional will give a bunch of reasons that it will detract from he game. Those of you who wan tit ill say "don't use it", as if it's a viable argument. :rolleyes:

Obsidian is making a hardcoe mode and a casual mode, effectively making anything casual optional. The fast travel argument that optional is not optional, relies on the fact that there is no alternative, so the problem is not that you can use Oblivion fast travel, but that there is no viable alternative. The same way your argument against quest markers being optional is that there is will be no alternative, but you can't prove that they won't make a viable alternative for no quest markers ( ex: giving you the relevant info to find it yourself). If beth works with optional in mind (like obsidian), there will obviously be an alternative to quest markers.

All necromancers hostile. All the time. I stole a mage's staff once too. It was my own. That way I wouldn't interfere with a theft I was going to do later. :bonk: (My sheogorath training is going along well, wouldn't you say?) I liked the dual methods for the DB, and there was a decent storyline to it, but there is one thing I liked about morrowind that wasn't in Oblivion. If there was a quest I didn't like, sometimes I really could refuse to do it and still progress in standing. Work for the guild in some other town. Don't want to perform writs in the Tong? Reclaim the sanguine items. Trebonius give you some ridiculously vague task? Ignore it and find someone else to assign you a task. Don't like the way the Fighters Guild is headed? See if anyone opposes the changes.

As for the morrowind quest there, you can also give the skirt to the slave there too. Not nice morally, but still possible.(You can cast calm on her afterwards to prevent her from killing the slave if you want) Considering you disobeyed a Telvanni councilor, I'm not surprised they wouldn't accept you having completed the quest. Therana's going to tell them she didn't get the skirt.

More choices is always nice, including the option to decline quests.

I've found out what I was supposed to do, I even thought of it before just dropping the skirt, but on the basis that you can't do it at any other point in the game, I didn't look into the slave option, I mean why should you be able to there when you can't do it anywhere else.

But I didn't disobey, She saw me drop it of in her room, I had already told her that I had her skirt, but she wanted me to take it on, but we know how that ends.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:23 pm

This is Telvanni. They're fickle about everything. Therana wants you to prove it isn't cursed. If you don't she won't send word that she received the delivery. It's like working for UPS and dropping a package off without getting signed off.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:38 pm

This is Telvanni. They're fickle about everything. Therana wants you to prove it isn't cursed. If you don't she won't send word that she received the delivery. It's like working for UPS and dropping a package off without getting signed off.

Not my problem, my objective was to deliver it, not to play dress-up. how will she even send word, which is faster than me? They already know that she's difficult to work with, this should not be a problem. they can fail me for it, but the problem is that dropping it in front of her eyes, is not a valid decision, she wont "call" back and say anything, I can't even fail! the whole thing can't continue, unless I make the designed choice. When I get back and they ask me if I've delivered it, I can't say yes, and then say she's just being difficult.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:33 pm

That I can agree with. Unfortunately it creates a lot more work. How many quests can you fail before they give up on you? Do they cycle through them again until you finally pick one? Do they expel you, and should that be permanent? You can't reasonably create an infinite amount of quests to cycle through unless you're using a quest system like Daggerfall's.

One other thing though...have you tried killing her?(You might have to make amends, but maybe it'll advance your questlines.)

» Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:36 am

That I can agree with. Unfortunately it creates a lot more work. How many quests can you fail before they give up on you? Do they cycle through them again until you finally pick one? Do they expel you, and should that be permanent? You can't reasonably create an infinite amount of quests to cycle through unless you're using a quest system like Daggerfall's.

One other thing though...have you tried killing her?(You might have to make amends, but maybe it'll advance your questlines.)

I would actually like a system where failing a certain amount of quests will degrade your rank, kind of like daggerfall. I haven't tried killing her, I wasn't really that powerful, so the thought of fighting a high ranking telvanni member in her own personal castle was kind of pushed aside pretty quickly.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:15 pm

If I remember she's a pretty decent spellcaster too. Probably a good thing you didn't try right away.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:21 pm

First thing's first, I think the compass and the quest markers were just dandy. There hurt absolutely no one - the type of people who follow the compass obsessively are the same people who don't care about exploring. Keep the compass and quest markers, but give the player the option to disable them if they're that bothersome. Really, the same argument could be made for quest markers as could be made for fast travel in Oblivion - they can only help. They can't hinder your gameplay experience unless you use them, which is strictly optional.

Secondly, a game should never leave you feeling "lost". A game should inspire within the player a desire to explore the unbeaten path, but they should never leave them feeling "lost". This is one of my major qualms with Morrowind, an otherwise great game - without fast travel or quest markers, the writers should have worked a bit harder on the directions given to the player. The player shouldn't have to undergo a quest (with directions) just to find directions to other place ("Yes, I've reached Maar Gan! Oh, yeah - I still need to get to the Ashlander camp...").

I'm all about adding optional layers of conveniance into gameplay - things you can use when or if you have to. Consider Fallout: New Vegas's "hardcoe Mode" - perhaps such a feature should be implemented into TESV? Normal mode includes all the immenities, such as map markers and fast travel. hardcoe mode omits them all (in addition to other things).

But, yeah. Like most discussions of this nature, the answer lies in "If you don't like it, don't use it".

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:00 pm

But, yeah. Like most discussions of this nature, the answer lies in "If you don't like it, don't use it".

If you're doing a quest, intentionally not using it means going the wrong way. Not to mention that there's little to no usable directions in Oblivion. This was already discussed.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:43 pm

Feeling "lost" is one of those things that you get with a sandbox game. ANY sandbox game. that's pretty much the point of having tons of stuff to do and places to go. Whether it's an action sandbox, an RPG sandbox, or whatever. If you don't like getting "lost", go and play a linear game that has no chance of becoming lost.

I mean, it's not like Morrowind actually got me stupidly lost every 5 minutes. I mean, if you often get lost in Morrowind, http://www.courtneyhoskins.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/DoubleFacePalm.jpg is here to help.

The ONLY times I ever remember being lost in Morrowind where when I was finding the Dwemer Puzzle box (immensly enjoyable, imo), finding the Urkilashu Burial Caverns, and finding the Cavern of the Incarnate (A long lost, hidden cave where only candidates of the Nerevarine may enter, hidden by Azura and the dangers of Red Mountain shouldn't be easy to find, and I shouldn't know where it is, especially being an outlander)

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:37 pm

Feeling "lost" is one of those things that you get with a sandbox game. ANY sandbox game. that's pretty much the point of having tons of stuff to do and places to go. Whether it's an action sandbox, an RPG sandbox, or whatever. If you don't like getting "lost", go and play a linear game that has no chance of becoming lost.

I mean, it's not like Morrowind actually got me stupidly lost every 5 minutes. I mean, if you often get lost in Morrowind, http://www.courtneyhoskins.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/DoubleFacePalm.jpg is here to help.

I don't recall ever getting lost in Grand Theft Auto

But I do like how, on one hand, you say that getting lost is "part of playing a sandbox game," but then you turn around and go "if you often get lost then *insert witty internet meme here.*" So getting lost is something one should expect while playing this type of game, but if I'm getting lost TOO much then I'm obviously doing it wrong. How often is too much? Maybe you're right, maybe this ISN'T the type of game for me even though I've enjoyed both Oblivion and Morrowind fine up until this point. :sadvaultboy:

If you're doing a quest, intentionally not using it means going the wrong way. Not to mention that there's little to no usable directions in Oblivion. This was already discussed.

Technically you could set your active quest as one you don't plan on doing for awhile (say, the main quest

) then go off and do other things and you won't have to worry about the quest markers. But, yeah, the poor NPC directions keep that from really being viable in Oblivion.

» Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:52 am

But I do like how, on one hand, you say that getting lost is "part of playing a sandbox game," but then you turn around and go "if you often get lost then *insert witty internet meme here.*" So getting lost is something one should expect while playing this type of game, but if I'm getting lost TOO much then I'm obviously doing it wrong. How often is too much? Maybe you're right, maybe this ISN'T the type of game for me even though I've enjoyed both Oblivion and Morrowind fine up until this point. :sadvaultboy:

An open Sandbox should involve being lost

Morrowind is in no way hard to get lost in.

Morrowind needs to be harder to get lost in.

Yes, Morrowind has flaws. :rolleyes: