One would think Bethesda would make sure the Creation Engine was capable of producing real ladders. If it's not though, it won't be a game breaker either. There are many other features to worry about more so than climbable ladders.

i dont think they are lazy..........pretty much every other game has it so it cant be that hard to implement..........im voting for number 3 simply cause we know that bethesda is awful with animations. maybe they tried doing ladders and they looked so horrible that even by their standards (which are really low) they svcked so bad they couldnt leave them in. they are getting better with them as the games go on mainly fallout 3 and new vegas but they still have alot of catching up to do with other developers in that regard.

I'm one of those who would appreciate the ladders. Most of my characters are using stealth so ladders and/or ropes would improve the stealthy approach to buildings greatly. For me it really is a big deal, as big as being able to re-stealth in the dark/behind objects while being chased.

Two animations, one for small one for grown up. Harder if you have all sort of heights. However they solved it for stairs and ladders should actually be easier as it's a fixed animation.

1998

*remembers ladders in HL1*

Oh... Oh dear god...

They didn't actually fix it in HL2, either.

If I remember correctly, Todd said the gamebryo engine was the reason ladders were such an issue... so seeing as there is a new engine, shouldn't the problems they encountered go away? Maybe this is a good place to watch to actually see if its a new engine, or just a heavily modified gamebryo engine? Lol but is say they'll have ladders down this time around. Hopefully haha.

Actually I don' think he mentioned Gamebroyo as the cause, and in any respect we still have Gamebroyo in Skyrim (just a more advanced version), and it's really only involved in rendering.

I think it has everything to do with Animations and spatial control over the NPC as they move up/down and get off/on the ladders correctly - but thats just my speculation, and I'm just making excuses for BGS because I'm a diehard fan.

Hard to say why they actually didn't meet Todd's approval, but you are absolutely correct in that the new engine may indeed make it possible!

I just looked at the the video again. The ladder does indeed lead to somewhere--another open room or balcony of some kind which is connected to the main room (no door or anything to signify a different cell). If they bothered to add a room in the game that can only be reached by way of a ladder, I'm sure you can climb it. Since there is no door/barrier, I'm willing to beleive that you can actually climb it, not get a load screen.

I hope they copy the F.E.A.R ladder approach--very good in my opinion with climbing animation, and AI used it too.

can someone get a screen cap?

We have stairs in TES, why we need ladders?

I prefer that resources in BGS will be directed to the artificial intelligence of NPC's.

Sorry if i bother someone with my opinion.

I think ladders are "needed" because:

1) They give you a different perspective of the environment.

2) They are very nice and good for stealthy characters.

3) Can give you an advantage or disadvantage in battles, making things more interesting.

4) It's 2011, not 2002 or something like that. No more "teleport" to the top.


Personally, this is what I think. And if ladders aren't included, I'd rather have them spend time on something else like mounts, spears, better graphics, travel services, etc.

1) Maybe, but i'm not pretend to be at ladders all day long admiring the environment... What i'm try to say (and sorry but english is not my native language, so I need your understanding in this matter, thanks) is if you want go from A to B point at top, you use stairs. No need ladders to do that...
2) Agree, but in that case, If BGS want's to give more advantage to stealthy characters i prefer ropes, because you can put in your stuff instead...
3) Do you really need MORE ADVANTAGES IN BATTLE in TES?? Why do i mentioned AI in previous post? In battle you have almost ALL advantages (human Int, potions, spells, pause...) against animals enemies, and in battles against humans they cure themselves 1, 2 maybe 3 times and that's it !!!
4) When i use stairs in Morrowind (and Oblivion) is not teleport, is just going from A to B in same cell.

Said that, i totally agree with you that travel services as in Morrowind will be cool in Skyrim if there. But i keep my opinion that a better AI for NPC's will be crucial for gameplay and battles is Skyrim.

I can definitely see the argument for Ropes as well as Ladders (reminds me of that ancient game I played as a kid - Ropes and Ladders! lol).

Ropes would be neat because a thief could potentially "create" a climbing point anywhere that they could throw a grapple - and That would be quite incredible. Stationary ropes would be neat too, and I think not a huge stretch from ladders (a different set of animations obviously, including the rope which would have to wiggle as the player climbed).

Here too I think the challenge involves placing the NPC/Player exactly in the right "spot" in X,Y,Z space as they climb, to disembark at the right point, etc. Alot of the tech is already in the GECK for that part, as COCXmarkerHeading objects could indicate the point where the player/NPC exits the ladder or rope at top and bottom, solving the start/end-point where the player would climb on and get off.

I wish we understood the challenge better that Todd and team experienced in Not being satisfied with them in the past. It certainly seems time to add these now, as Many other games have this tech and we see the components in different BGS games over the last 3-4 titles. Perhaps the challenge comes from followers or persuers?

Immersion and variety are key reasons for me to wanting ladders, the ancient world would have Many more of these than fully-built staircases with rails as we saw in Oblivion everywhere, and my stealthy character would Love more options for getting up/down.

because it just looks funny not to have them.
look at a game that came out in 98. [action adventure w rpg elements] tloz ocarina of time, it had ladders, climbable surfaces etc and it is well over 11 years old now...come on, its a small step to climbing in general,
also its just STUPID NOT TO HAVE LADDERS OR CLIMBABLE ENVIRONMENT IN A GAME THAT HAS VERTICAL SPACE!

Honestly I'm fine with a quick load screen to a higher / lower space in the cell.
Actual climbing is not that big a deal for me, where you climb to is.

Hidden sniper perches, walkways above guards and hidden rooms or inclosed gutters.
The climbing is only a very small part of this.

With the quick load screen, already having been used in past games no work needs doing.
Then they can work on story and dialogue, or levitate.


Also try Daggerfalls system, enter sneak you can't move down stairs let alone climb.

Was that anything like Chutes and Ladders?

I'm all for it. Ropes and ladder climbing (with animation) would definitely enhance the experience, but not something I would demand.

Lots of places like barns or caves stairs would be out of place, tactically it give you a place four legged creatures are unable to reach and you can hit people climbing up in their head with a warhammer.

But yes if they have ladders make them work, if not then don't have them inn as nobody will notice.

ive heard other people complaining about them too.......except for a couple of times i never got stuck on them. the part of half life that i hated was when you were sliding crates or boxes.....it was almost impossible to get them to go the direction you wanted to go.

as for ropes...........if youve ever played dark messiah then you know how much is added by having climbable ropes and chains.

there were ladders that were clearly visable before, clearly there were not many of them since they did not work in the way as they do in some other games. but who cares, they way they did it worked fine, its not like I plan of RPing a character who mostly just climbs ladders. the normal bgs ladder system would be slightly faster than any realistic version any ways, (taking the loading time from NV and not OB)

Why are people stating this as fact all the time when it's not even likely the case. ALL evidence has pointed to precisely the opposite.

EDIT: I have now been informed of newerinformation regarding this and it is an overhauled Gamebryo, but with so much changed they have renamed it.

i see no ladder in that part you described. maybe you're over anolyzing.

I'm in full agreement. Anyone who claims that ladders/ropes are superfluous and a sign of decadence should remember how many games that are set in dungeon-like environment feature ladders and ropes.
Hint: It's nearly all of them. Half-Life, Doom, Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, Uncharted, Redguard, Tomb Raider, Indiana Jones, ... I don't even want to repeat the reasons for this, they are so obvious.

The bottomline is that adventuring is more fun if you can go in more directions, and dungeons tend to be cooler if they make use of all 6 directions you can go.

The issues with AI is a lousy justification. Fix: Never have an NPC climb a ladder.
If ladders are in the game and can be used to travel between two points in one cell, it would be weird and stupid if there wasn't some kind of animation for it, even a fixed one where you can't stop mid-climb. And if you really must put NPCs in positions where climbing a ladder is an option, can't they just teleport still? It would be a drastic improvement over the current system.

In Oblivion, although proper ladders were long overdue, their exclusion never really bothered me. Miles and miles of forest and grassland? Definitely no need for ladders. But Skyrim is much more vertical than Cyrodiil, and Todd has said time and again that most of the perception of space in Skyrim comes from the huge amount of verticality. Being incapable of climbing in this enovironment would be obvious.

Great i can do the laddergoat