landfall hasn't come yet : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Sat Nov 13, 2010 6:13 pm

what if what the loveletter had warned us about has not happend yet? Think about it the name landfall has not been stated anywhere yet besides the loveletter. the event of the MOT crashing is refered to as the red year. I believe the red year and landfall are two different disaters. I believe even MK once said that the book wasn't the landfall that we anticipated or something along those lines. So what is the landfall?

I believe the landfall is when umbriel lands on mundus even the name makes sinse landfall= when umbriel lands. Another thing of note is that greg keys in the recent interview even said "not everyone dies" and i don't think he was talking about the main characters I think he was talking about the world. This would fit with the loveletter. So what all happends in the landfall?

We know that the towers hold the world in balance and when towers go down that disaters happen look at what happend to yukanda when their tower was destroyed or the oblivon crisis when white gold and red tower went down.So if umbriel in the process of useing white gold destroys it the potential devestation could be the landfall.

» Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:15 pm

what if what the loveletter had warned us about has not happend yet? Think about it the name landfall has not been stated anywhere yet besides the loveletter. the event of the MOT crashing is refered to as the red year. I believe the red year and landfall are two different disaters. I believe even MK once said that the book wasn't the landfall that we anticipated or something along those lines. So what is the landfall?

MK's "This is not the landfall you're looking for" comment? You got hit with a jedi mind trick. You should raise your willpower stat or get a species change to toydarian.

» Sun Nov 14, 2010 12:40 am

Morrowind done got blowed up. I don't think it's possible for it to explode even more.

» Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:01 am

Morrowind done got blowed up. I don't think it's possible for it to explode even more.

There's always Masser and Secunda :flamethrower:

» Sat Nov 13, 2010 1:15 pm

I still stand behind the "this is the not the landfall you are looking for" statement. Because either the novels version is the landfall we are looking for, and the loveletter is bull, or it isn't the landfall we are looking for and something far more spectacular is yet to come. Judging by the Loveletters post-apocalyptic, total destruction vibe the novel is a dumbed-down version. In either case each one manages to cancel the other out. Go figure.

Baan Dar and Baar Dan are not the same things, one is a rogue planet, the other an upset chunk of rock.

» Sat Nov 13, 2010 1:08 pm

I would prefer Masser and Secunda to smash into the Summerset Isles if anything. Teach those High Elves to stop being so arrogant.

» Sat Nov 13, 2010 1:14 pm

I would prefer Masser and Secunda to smash into the Summerset Isles if anything. Teach those High Elves to stop being so arrogant.

Shor directly intervening? Awesome! No more avatar crap!

» Sun Nov 14, 2010 1:32 am

See, everybody is happy!

That should be the next big crisis in TES. Except you do nothing to stop it.

» Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:18 pm

what if what the loveletter had warned us about has not happend yet? Think about it the name landfall has not been stated anywhere yet besides the loveletter. the event of the MOT crashing is refered to as the red year. I believe the red year and landfall are two different disaters. I believe even MK once said that the book wasn't the landfall that we anticipated or something along those lines. So what is the landfall?

I agree with you - The Landfall in question may even occur in the second novel. What will happen to Umbriel? It must crash somewhere, surely. The Imperial City perhaps?

That being said, the events of The Red Year are certainly apocalyptic enough to fulfil the criteria of The Landfall.

» Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:16 am

Landfall isn't when the Ministry of Truth smashes into Vivec City.

Think about this statement, we have seen it numerous times: "When you turn the wheel sideways you will see the eternal I." (paraphrased)

The Imperial City is shaped like a wheel and each of the inside walls a spoke. White Gold Tower is the eternal I. This was why Mehrunes Dagon appeared in the Imperial City, to destroy the wheel, that which holds Tamriel together or that which binds it to Mundus.

Now think about this:

Spoiler

In "Infernal City" near the end you learn that in order for Umbriel to stop feeding on souls it will have to travel to White Gold Tower. What happens then is still a mystery. That my friends, is Landfall.

» Sat Nov 13, 2010 1:43 pm

Landfall was named Landfall, not Moonfall.

» Sat Nov 13, 2010 11:15 am

The fall of the Ministry of Truth was a myth-echo of the Landfall. The Landfall-ine. When the real moons "fall" it won't be a physical impact - it will be the dreamer waking.

» Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:35 pm

I agree with you - The Landfall in question may even occur in the second novel. What will happen to Umbriel? It must crash somewhere, surely. The Imperial City perhaps?

I think a good guess is it will land in Morrowind, simultaneously reforming it anew with some stolen creatia-management powers from White-Gold.

Think about this statement, we have seen it numerous times: "When you turn the wheel sideways you will see the eternal I." (paraphrased)

The Imperial City is shaped like a wheel and each of the inside walls a spoke. White Gold Tower is the eternal I. This was why Mehrunes Dagon appeared in the Imperial City, to destroy the wheel, that which holds Tamriel together or that which binds it to Mundus

White-gold is not The Wheel, it's an imitation of it - this is not the 'I' you're looking for...

» Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:19 am

Hmm... Interesting. It never would've occurred to me that Landfall could be a reference to something else entirely. I just assumed because of what happened, and that giant rock being, well, made of land...

I need to re-examine the way I look at things in the world of Elder Scrolls, I think.

» Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:08 am

I believe even MK once said that the book wasn't the landfall that we anticipated or something along those lines.

You're referencing MK's "This isn't the Landfall you're looking for." The quote is almost certainly a reference to Star Wars' "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1rlThKe1qo." In the movie, they were the droids the troopers were after, but the Jedi mind trick made them think otherwise. When translated to TIC/Landfall, it makes sense that it is the Landfall we're looking for, but it is obscured by MK saying that its not (whether in that quote, or by what was previously described in the Loveletter).

Nothing within the Loveletter says that the entire world has been destroyed. Hell, it doesn't even say that Morrowind was destroyed. It make ominous warnings and references to a desolate landscape, but it is no worse than what Morrowind was at the end of the 3rd.

We know that the towers hold the world in balance and when towers go down that disaters happen look at what happend to yukanda when their tower was destroyed or the oblivon crisis when white gold and red tower went down.

Yokuda was destroyed through the sword-cutting of atoms, not through the fall of its tower. Likewise, the fall of the Red did nothing bad for Morrowind, and neither did the fall of the White-Gold for Cyrodiil. The Oblivion Crisis did not happen because the towers fell or because there was no emperor on the throne, it happened because the Mythic Dawn took advantage of all these weaknesses and then preformed a ritual to weaken the barrier further. Besides that, we really can't know what would happen if a self-sustaining piece of Oblivion (which just happens to be an echo of the mortal realm) crashes down on the White-Gold (which may or may not be operational).

I think that the fall of the Ministry and the subsequent eruption of Red Mountain fits what few 'criteria' we can discern from the Loveletter. The landfall of Umbriel would fit chiefly because the criteria would already have been covered by the Red Year.

» Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:17 pm

That being said, the events of The Red Year are certainly apocalyptic enough to fulfil the criteria of The Landfall.

Red Year was not much more apocalyptic than Year of Winter in Summer, IMHO. Argonians invasion was much more catastrophic.

You're referencing MK's "This isn't the Landfall you're looking for." The quote is almost certainly a reference to Star Wars' "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1rlThKe1qo."

This is incomplete MK's quote

I think, when the moon fall down on land we don't call in "Landfall". Landfall - is when the land fall down from the hub of the wheel.

» Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:09 pm

This is incomplete MK's quote

Care to source the complete one, then?

Landfall, per definition, is when a ship (or storm, meteorologically speaking) reaches land. That matches the Ministry and Umbriel a whole of a lot better than the literal falling of a piece of land (dirtpatch, ahoy!)

» Sat Nov 13, 2010 1:42 pm

these two quotes that are no doubt references to umbriel in the love letter

Another subcreation happened to the wheels of the etada, a shore that all of creation crashed against, the terminus of limits known as Oblivion.
An echo of the Void before but unalike, many spirits fled here and came to power by merely harnessing the impossibility of Limit+All.

This refences umbriel comeing to nirn by useing the white gold tower.

They are dogma complemented by the influence of the untrustworthy sea and the
governance of the stars, dominated at the center by the sword, which is nothing without a victim to cleave unto.

This is no doubt a reference to umbra and and umbriel how he was a sword that had victims he cleave unto.

» Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:46 pm

I have to agree with Lady N on this one but redmer is right about one thing though that the landfall is not the same thing as the red year. They are two different events. It wasn't common knowledge that the MOT was going to fall and nobody really knew that the red year was caused by the MOT. This is proven when Attribus was talking to Sul and he asked Sul if he knew what had caused the red year. So landfall and the red year are two different events. Landfall is the falling of the MOT, and the red year is red mountain errupting. One more thing of note to add is that the sermon of love has no reason to be in the loveletter if it was refering to umbriel instead of the MOT. More proof that it refers to the MOT is that we have the quote from the sermons about when the love of vivec fails the MOT will fall whch fits perfectly with the loveletter.

» Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:46 am

these two quotes that are no doubt references to umbriel in the love letter

Another subcreation happened to the wheels of the etada, a shore that all of creation crashed against, the terminus of limits known as Oblivion.
An echo of the Void before but unalike, many spirits fled here and came to power by merely harnessing the impossibility of Limit+All.

This refences umbriel comeing to nirn by useing the white gold tower.

They are dogma complemented by the influence of the untrustworthy sea and the
governance of the stars, dominated at the center by the sword, which is nothing without a victim to cleave unto.

This is no doubt a reference to umbra and and umbriel how he was a sword that had victims he cleave unto.

I like this explanation. Maybe the MoT and Umbriel are parts of the same event (Landfall) and that Red Mountain was just cause and effect from the MoT falling.

» Sat Nov 13, 2010 2:03 pm

Could it not be possible that Landfall is the moon falling, but since the love-letter was written years later through the perspective of a dunmer (?), the event became exaggerated into even more mythic proportions? Such things do happen in real life (Minus the falling moons and islands blowing up)

» Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:54 pm

Care to source the complete one, then?

Not one, then...

This is all fascinating to me. I don't know that the Loveletter is as clear-cut as you all seem to think (after all, look who wrote it). I think many details are being conveniently glossed over in the rush to make it mean what you want it to mean.

Grey and glowing, like dusted drakes from home, where three thousand fetters the dreamsleeve has chased us

Loud with a lilt, like cross knots from pre-phala,
Where even tour guides are pagans in tweed

Lineage without end,
a language of silent letters,
Bog gods hiding in moss beneath the cross

Liqour that tasted like liquid bread,
Soups that created guild masters,
Parasols like wands at the ready,
Voidrocks, crystal, and sheep

Aurbic indecency enough to wake the dead,
High heels caked in mud to nubs,
Eagerness-to-see to keep us steady,
Luggage, eye-fire, and sleep

My girl as finely feathered as the hawkmoth she's always been,
In a whirling circle beneath the sleeve,
And old gods demanding a drunk from the mead,
As my Memory's visit then split the clouds in twain

Prayers heaped on those already said,
Finding ebony in a row of shrubs,
The Vehkship's bouncing cross-talk a melody,
Thankful our bloodlines were on the cheap

And my girl fuming in the whirlwind she's always in,
Wanting another hour in which to gain
Some semblance of our life to lead,
From parts, whole-cloth the whole in main

***

I must agree with Lord Maturin; this is not the Landfall you are looking for.

-MK

» Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:39 pm

I think a good guess is it will land in Morrowind, simultaneously reforming it anew with some stolen creatia-management powers from White-Gold.

White-gold is not The Wheel, it's an imitation of it - this is not the 'I' you're looking for...

As I stated "Walk like them until they must walk like you." Those are the basic instructions for mantling. See the instruction as it truly is: imitation.

these two quotes that are no doubt references to umbriel in the love letter

Another subcreation happened to the wheels of the etada, a shore that all of creation crashed against, the terminus of limits known as Oblivion.
An echo of the Void before but unalike, many spirits fled here and came to power by merely harnessing the impossibility of Limit+All.

This refences umbriel comeing to nirn by useing the white gold tower.

They are dogma complemented by the influence of the untrustworthy sea and the
governance of the stars, dominated at the center by the sword, which is nothing without a victim to cleave unto.

This is no doubt a reference to umbra and and umbriel how he was a sword that had victims he cleave unto.

I like this explanation. Maybe the MoT and Umbriel are parts of the same event (Landfall) and that Red Mountain was just cause and effect from the MoT falling.

I don't think Landfall is a singular event but rather a series of unfortunate events that culminate as one tragedy: Landfall.

I'm going to wrap the following in spoilers, have fun enjoying this theory:

Spoiler

Vuhon created the machine that was used to hold the Ministry aloft as Vivec's power had waned. When the machine exploded it sent Vuhon and Sul into Oblivion as it released the Ministry unto Morrowind. In Oblivion Vuhon and Sul met a reformed Umbra, free of his prison and stronger than ever due to taking a part of Vile's soul unto himself. In response, Vile changed his realm so that Umbra could not escape. With Vuhon's machine, it would be possible.

This is basically what we know about the ingenium and we know Vuhon made some kind of deal with Umbra to make a new one. It is my theory that Vuhon used Umbra's power to create a more powerful machine, Umbriel, one capable of escaping Oblivion using a technique already mastered by Umbra, the taking of souls.

We also know that the residents of Umbriel are now a part of it, a separate realm from Oblivion yet a part of it, also separate from Mundus yet also a part of it. Those that try to leave disintegrate into nothing. The Umbriel machine needs souls to operate, and lots of them. We see the devastation it caused in Black Marsh and we also learn why it is going to White-Gold Tower as Vuhon puts it, "I need the city. Specifically, I need to reach the White-Gold Tower. Then all of this can end. The dying can stop, and I can bring Umbriel to rest somewhere."

This then takes us to White-Gold Tower and my theory on it being the "Enternal I". Luagar2 commented on this theory stating that White-Gold is merely an imitation of the wheel. Then what is mantling but imitation? Also we must ask ourselves: Why does Umbriel need White-Gold Tower?

Look closely at what Vuhon states "I can bring Umbriel to rest somewhere." How is he to do that if Umbriel is in another dimension? To answer this question we must observe how Umbriel works.

How does it work? Souls, and lots of them. In order to bring itself in phase with Mundus it needs a powerful soul. A soul so powerful that merely taking it could [censored] the world and thrash it into the future that is the 5th era. Where does this soul reside? White-Gold Tower, a massive soul gem holding captive the soul of the thief, the liar, trickster and deceiver. What better way for the Aylieds to seek vengeance upon Lorkhan than by binding his essence unto Mundus as he did to them? His flesh the Moons, his heart the weight of the world and his essence bound within the imitation to hold it all together, imprisoning him forever. Until a giant soul svcking landmass comes....

Those who do not fail become the New Men: an individual beyond all AE, unerased and all-being. Jumping beyond the last bridge of all existence is the Last Existence, The Eternal I.

I AM.

A whole World of You.

God.

God outside of all else but his own free consciousness, hallucinating for eternity and falling into love: I AM AND I ARE ALL WE.

This is also how the Elder Scrolls get their power. We theorize that they originate within White-Gold Tower. <-- random thought.

» Sun Nov 14, 2010 1:10 am

I think it's one off several alternatives. First being that it either wasn't landfall at all or was only a part of it. That ties in with the "Umbirel lands on IC" theory. it could also be that landfall was averted entirely thanks to Vuhon's ingenium, and instead of landfall as thew forum believed it would be it was just Morrowind exploding. It could be that facts have been twisted to suit the "all Tamriel goes boom theory" instead of vice versa like the Sovngarde quest in Bloodmoon, and that last being MK making fun of the people who thought landfall would be all of Tamriel and [censored]ed about it when it wasn't.

Or maybe all these are wrong and we'll all have a good laugh about it later.

» Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:32 pm

As I stated "Walk like them until they must walk like you." Those are the basic instructions for mantling. See the instruction as it truly is: imitation.

Oversimplification will get you nothing. Walking requires an action, simply being a symbol does not - mantling is for individuals, symbolism can be for anything. White-Gold is a symbolic imitation, it is not mantling, the chief reason being that White-Gold is static. It is not walking and nothing is going to walk like it.

This then takes us to White-Gold Tower and my theory on it being the "Enternal I". Luagar2 commented on this theory stating that White-Gold is merely an imitation of the wheel. Then what is mantling but imitation? Also we must ask ourselves: Why does Umbriel need White-Gold Tower?

Mantling has nothing to do with it - again, mantling is done by individuals, this is about symbolism. The symbolism of the wheel with White-Gold is a separate symbolism from that of the 'I', which is looking at the Wheel sideways. Your problem is that you're blurring the generic symbolism of the Wheel with the very specific symbolism of the I (not to mention that you don't seem to understand mantling as a concept for actors in a play, its not just generic imitation).

The Wheel being referred to is again, not White-Gold, but the universe-as-wheel. The Wheel came first, White-Gold was made to in its symbolism and in no way serves as a substitute.

And of course the main point is that its not just about having an 'I' but about the context in which that 'I' is presented. Looking at White-Gold sideways won't get you jack-[censored] because the contextual symbolism for the 'I' is not there. That is, White-Gold isn't subgradient so even if you did see an 'I' by looking at it sideways it would be meaningless. If you want to see an 'I' you could just look at the tower itself, but again, its not just about the 'I' but the context in which the 'I' is presented and White-Gold doesn't have that context (the context of an individual subdividing itself to infinity).