Something that has been puzzling me recently is language and the naming of things within the Elder Scrolls Lore, and i've come up with a few questions about it.

Edit: I've reworded the questions to make more sense:
Is the reason that most of the npcs speak in the same language because they are speaking a common tongue (rendered as english), but they each have their own unique traditional language or 'old tongue'?
Do the names of creatures or places mean anything in the in-lore languages? For example does Cheydinhal mean anything in a tongue of Cyrodiil, or does Dreugh mean anything?

Do the different races of man have their own languages, and if so why aren't these portrayed ingame?

Do the names of places, creatures, ect, that are obviously not english, such as Ald'ruhn or Guar, mean anything in the native languages of their province?
Or are they just random words that the devs came up with that they thought sounded good?

I assume the language of the Empire is english (it's probably called something else in the lore), so why do places in other provinces have 'english' names, such as Mournhold and Dragonstar?
Is it because they were founded or once occupied by the Empire?

And finally, why does every province in Tamriel except for Elsweyr & Cyrodiil have an english name?

Or is this just part of the lore that hasn't been developed much? :huh:

Tankard of mead for anyone who can help answer

The Redguards for one have their own language, or at least had. The reason language differences aren't portrayed in game is obviously practicality. Nobody on the team has the time (or perhaps skills) to just make up an entire language and if they did, none of the players would understand it.


Some places in Morrowind such as Ald-Ruhn and Molag Amur are composed out of root words with individual meanings. Others like Gnisis or Khuul were just made up. That doesn't mean, of course, that you can't imagine them have some sort of meaning (which may have gotten lost over the centuries). It's just never explicitly mentioned.


Most of those names were made up for Arena, when the point of those names was simply to fill up the map. In most cases, they are rather meaningless. You can of course imagine they are Imperial equivalents for native names.


Ditto.

In Reguard,I do believe a Khajit was speaking (presumably) the Khajit language and it was translated with subtitles(unless it was my hearing)

The Khajiit language, as well as a few words, are also mentioned by one of the Blackwood Company members.

The Imperial language isn't English. It's called Cyrodiilic or Tamrielic, and is supposedly based on Aldmeris (the original Elven language), so would presumably be a bit like http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ayleid_Language crossed with the early Nedic (human) languages. It's just rendered as English (or whatever language the player happens to speak) for the sake of the games.

Here are a couple of quotes from Morrowind:





Personally I imagine that the Imperial and Elven languages are close enough that speakers can understand each other to some extent (a bit like modern Spanish and Italian speakers). That's just a guess, though.

Theres a http://www.imperial-library.info/content/translation-dictionary to the different languages in the Translation Dictionary at TIL.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/water-getting-girl-and-inverse-tiger is a great example of a proto-imperial language, Kothri. Its part Aldmeri and part something wholly different. I had a blast translating it. Modern Imperial is probably a similar mix of Aldmer and presumably Nordic. I would say its more like German and English though, in that some words are similar but its not alike enough to be understood. After all, Ayleid is already quite a jump from Traditional Aldmeri, and the Imperials were also influenced by the Nordic tongue(s) and the language has had several thousand years to develop.

Elsweyr is English*. Elsweyr = Elsewhere. Cyrodiil is the only non-English province name.

*By which I mean translated to English from Tamrielic for our benefit.

Andanorcil summed it up. Look at Star Wars, do you think they're really speaking English? Or LOTR; do you think they're really supposed to be speaking British-English? No, but it they were written in a totally foreign language, how well would it sell? I imagine that the reason the play can understand people in every province they go to is because most people have learned Cyrodiilic or whatever the main language of the empire is. Tamrielic? someone correct me on the name there.

Akavirguy, is that redguard scene with the Khajiit speaking on youtube somewhere? I'd love to see that! I wish I had that game.

There are also languages for the centaurs, dragons, faeries, giants, harpies, imps, nymphs, orcs, and wild elves.

Hell yeah! Daggerfall had the right idea with using those languages skills http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Skills, although they seemed to be useless in the game. I think it just made the creature not attack you. They need to use that same concept in their next game.

On the other hand, the spread of the Empire (or rather, Empires) and of Tamrielic as a common language may well have influenced the development of language in the provinces.

I didn't word my questions very well tbh. I was thinking more about the naming of things than speech. I know that all npcs couldn't speak their native language for obvious reasons, but I think that there is not much of a sense of language in the game beyond the books, for example in naming or traditions.


Ah, I forgot about Cyrodiil... :facepalm:


Yeah, that's what I meant when I said that the Imperial language was called something else in the lore. My wording slips a bit when I get confused.


Actually, in LOTR most of the races or cultures adopted or adapted to using a 'common tongue' which is rendered as english, but the unique languages or 'old tongue' of each race or culture remain in some of the names of places or creatures. For example 'Minas Tirith' means 'Tower of the guard' in Sindarin, and the word 'Hobbit' derives from 'Hoblytan' which means 'hole-dwellers' in the Rohirrim tongue.
(I know this not because i'm a nerd, but I have a Tolkien encyclopedia lying around my house that was my dad's)

This really sums up though what I should have asked in the first place: Is the reason that most of the npcs speak in the same language because they are speaking a common tongue (rendered as english), but they each have their own unique traditional language or 'old tongue'?
Do the names of creatures or places mean anything in the in-lore languages? For example does Cheydinhal mean anything in a tongue of Cyrodiil, or does Dreugh mean anything?
Aargh, sometimes I get so confused I don't know what i'm trying to get across sorry

Found it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mMNZ7G0cBI - he appears around the 5 minute mark.

i agree, but maybe they should sum all of those skills up with just "linguistics." the individual languages were impossible to train.

It's interesting to note that Khajiiti in that instance uses english (Cyrodiilic/Aldmeris) grammar as a point of convenience, though other instances of it don't necessarily. Experienced ears will also pick up 'Renrijra', as in Renrijra Krin. It's translated there to mean ruffians, while Ahzirr Trajijazaeri translates it as Mercenary, Landless, and Scum.

I'd say that's probably correct, we know at least some parts from the languages of some races, and I'd guess that each culture has their own native language, but most likely, the characters in the game all speak a common language, presumably Cyrodiilic or whatever the common tongue of the Empire is called, though it's rendered as English (Or a different language if you're playing a localized version of the game.) for the benefit of players. While some characters have been shown to use words from other languages in their speech (For example, Dunmer using terms like "sera" and "n'wah.") to my knowledge, the only instance of a character speaking entirely in his native language shown in a game is that Khajiit in Redguard. In that case, they dealed with the issue of players not understanding by using subtitles and just having the voice actor speak in the Khajiit language, still, I doubt we'll see this much, or at all, in future games as while it's easy enough to allow players to understand your made up languages through use of subtitles, but then you still have to make up the language, just having a few words in it isn't enough, you need to have enough material to actually form a coherent speech, which requires vocabulary, grammar, and so on, and I doubt most of the languages in the Elder Scrolls are well defined enough at this point to allow that, I also doubt Bethesda wants to put the effort that would be necessary to change this in, which I can live with, before trying to make their characters speak made-up languages, they need to make the dialog in real languages good first.

Otherworldly games don't speak "english" because there was no England. I refer to it as "Common" or "Basic" when in a fantasy setting.

I agree, plus I doubt that the lore-writers will devote enough time or focus to develop a Tolkien-level of fantasy language (no offence to them)

Putting this into the context of TES V, if it is set in Skyrim I assume the cultural and political difference between the Reach and the Old Holds is similar to the Highland-Lowland divide in Scotland (though it is not so prevalent today), with the Reach being more cosmopolitan, authoritative, sophisticated, and the Old Holds more traditional with a distinct Nordic culture. Because of this, there might be a greater sense of the native Nordic language in the Old Holds, like within names and speech. For example, those who live in the Old Holds might use traditional Nordic words or phrases in their speech, without completely speaking in that language for practical reasons, while residents of the Reach would speak almost purely the 'common tongue'

Whoa! I freakin love the way that Khajiit sounds when he talks. They really need to have NPCs of other cultures speak their own languages. And then you could have a linguistics skill to see if you can understand them. Hmm, maybe I should go suggest this in the suggestions thread. brb

Well said, Selbeth.

Many of the place names in Morrowind translate to English (Balmora = Stone Forest), but those names all come from an old Elven dialect. Given how small Tamriel supposedly is, and how the first continent-spanning empire appeared a few millenia before Oblivion takes place, I'd think that Tamrielic has been in use widely enough and long enough that it's largely supplanted the native languages, so you only see hints of them in old place names and the like. Based on this speculation, Cheydinhal and the other Cyrodiilic cities were likely named when a primitive form of Cyrodiilic or Tamrielic was still in local use.

The orcs also seem to have some kind of language/personal naming convention of their own. Their second names are almost all gra' or gro'--which I assumed meant "daughter of" or "son of", though I don't remember seeing anything about that in the game.

What about Argonia? Wikipedia tells me there's a town in Kansas with that name, but other than that, I can't see how it's english.

I forgot about that, but Argonia also goes by the name Black Marsh. It's interesting in that it's the only modern province that goes by two names. Well, Cyrodiil also goes by "The Imperial Province", but it's arguable if that should count.

Edit:

Going by the PGE 3ed, "Argonia" is the proper name, whereas "Black Marsh" is more of an insult. That explains the two names thing. However, the origins of the word "Argonia" are debatable. It's probably not Argonian, possibly not Elven, either.

An unrelated thought: The name "Ra Gada" somehow transformed into "Redguard". If this was due to spelling corruption, then "Redguard" *is* the Tamrielic term, and not a translation into English. I wonder if the devs intended for this coincidence, or if it's just an oversight.

I recall reading that "Argonian" means "people of the root." I believe the name to be of mannish or merrish origin, as it certainly does not sound Argonian. According to the Infernal City notes on the Imperial Library, the Argonian's term for themselves is "Saxhleel."

The origin of the name "Redguard" is twofold. In the Daggerfall era http://www.imperial-library.info/content/daggerfall-compilation-redguard-history history, they are named such because they were covered in blood after the battle of Hattu. This is retconned later on into the current version.

Languages other than the English equivalent "Tamrielic" are already quite prevalent. Aldmeri dialects - Dunmeri, Ayleid, Kothri - are well developed and used extensively in both Morrowind and Oblivion. Yoku - the Redguard language - appears spoken in Redguard and is implied in traditional Redguard names, such as Lhotun and Ayaan-si. Ta'Agra - the Khajiit tongue - is likewise used in Redguard, and interviews with Jobasha give us information on the construction of names and a rough idea of grammatical structure. The Infernal City greatly expands Jel, the Argonian language. Cyrodiil is shown to have at least two major naming systems. One, used on NPCs, is a faux Latin. The real-world equivalent of the other, used on lore personages such as Nu-Hatta, I can't quite place.

Hope that helps,
Ayaan-Si

How is Morrowind an english name theres wind but whats morro. Morro chocolate bars? A corruption of Marrow?