Remember the high minded, idealistic, robin-hood-like Grey Fox and band of merry do-gooders? They were all about righting the wrongs of social injustice and holding the powerful accountable for crimes against Tamriels plebeian class. Sure they stole stuff, but thier highest law was to never steal from the poorest of the poor and never under any circumstances were you to commit murder while on the job.

Now fastfoward to Skyrim and the band of not-so-merry malcontents and sociopaths, who are out to do only what is good for themselves. Far from fighting social injustice, they actually support a corrupt regime by repeatedly wronging the good hard working people of Skyrim and systematically breaking the backs of the middle class. Murder is still frowned upon in as much as it is bad for business, but it is also encouraged as long as not murdering would hurt the profits of the Thieves Guild or their clientele.

The Skyrim version of organized crime is of course alot more realistic than the rosey Oblivion version. The AI sneak detection, pickpocket and lockpick mechanics are also all vastly superior, more complex, and entertaining than Oblivion. However, I just wish I could play a thief without feeling like a total [censored] for furthering the cause of injustice and throwing my lot in with the jerkiest bunch of unlovable thugs ever to grace an RPG.

I guess the ideal would be both. Each city should have it's own crime underworld, with gangs of thieves as you described them. Then also a faction of "better" thieves, the Thieves Guild, who have some sort of code of conduct, and which represents a thieves link between cities.

Yeah i prefer oblivions thieves guild.

I know what you mean, but thieves really are scumbags. If you've ever walked out of your front door some cold morning just to find out some "icehole" stole your car and your only babyseat, you know what I'm talking about.

It was one way to go in Oblivion, but I can't really fault them for taking a more realistic (such as it were) approach to it in Skyrim.

But the goals of the guild don't have to be the goals of your character. Maybe you're making your way to the top so you can restore the honor of the guild, know what I mean?

They are not quite as bad as you make them out to be. Yes, they steal and they are thieves, but they don't want to to hurt anyone really. Well other than one person..... But the the reality is, they are the Thieves Guild

There really isn't a good thief, so playing as one you have to expect to be a nasty piece of work. It's a cut throat business you know. :wink_smile:

Thieves are thieves, not social protesters. They take other peoples' property for themselves, not resdistribute it for the good of society. Don't confuse petty criminals with guerilla politicians.

It is kind of a turn off framing and extorting hard working middle class people...

It also just feels much less "epic heist" and much more "stealing svcker from a 5 year old"...

I was happy to do the Thieves Guild in Oblivion because it was morally neutral and you were more an adventurer-thief on daring escapades, and not a hired thug. The problem with the Skryim one is that its less flexible. You are shoe-horned into becoming a mafia thug if you want to proceed with the quest line. I didn't get very far before quitting because it was too much. The Thieves Guild still could have had that, but it should have been as optional side quests.

We already have an evil guild in the Dark Brotherhood which is great, as well as many evil daedric quests. So having a nasty Thieves Guild really knocks the game out the balance.

There aren't really any "good" guilds to balance it out either. The Mages and Companions guilds are both fairly neutral and you don't need a good pc to follow them through.

The Thieves Guild is one of my favorite parts of Skyrim. I haven't played much of the other TES games, but going around pickpocketing and stealing items from homes and then selling them for my own profit is one of my favorite aspects of the game. Delvin is also one of favorite npc's in the game, and I don't consider him a "scumbag" in any way. I thought their quest line was the most fun and just the guild in general I enjoy the most. I don't think of myself as a bad person in game (even while also completing DB stuff) but I suppose to each their own.

I was also a little turned off when one of the first quests had me shaking people down, but at the same time, I wasn't crazy about the do-gooder Thieves' Guild of Oblivion. Something of a happy medium, perhaps?

You people do realize that the Thieves Guild in Skyrim is in deep trouble? They aren't doing as well as they used and have to sell Snake Oil just to get by. That tells you how far they've fallen. Would you expect a company that was in deep debt and about to go bankrupt to just give away money to strangers?

So...you hate the fact that the Thieves Guild is full of career criminals?

It's why I won't touch the thieves guild in this game, at least not with my good character, does not help that I'm stuck with a couple of unusual gems that I cannot drop because they are quest items for the thieves guild!

I haven't finished the Questline yet, but it sounds like you can't change their motives. It would be nice if, as you rose in the ranks, you were able to influence the direction a bit more. Then you could go for a mafia-type plot, or the more Robin Hood-type depending on your character. Either way it could still be the thieves guild at heart, you just have more influence as you progress (possibly with certain people leaving depending on your choices and if you can persuade them to stay).

I would like to suggest that perhaps the thieves guild isnt the place for you.

I have no problem with thier role in Skyrim it feels more like how they should be coarse around the edges, each person out for themselves at others expense, I personaly enjoyed the quest line and resolved to do each mission with minimal casualties to the extent that I only ever harmed one bandit when restoring them to glory, apart from the mission with shop keepers nobody ever saw me comming and nobody saw me leave.. I was a thief not some common thug its all in how you play the game.

I think some players take role playing to a new level.

Totally agree.. But also agree to Eagle15

:celebration: This.

How can you say you don't love the Thieves Guild members? I love Vex and Sapphire.

But seriously, I do like Cyrodill's Thieves Guild better.

What irks me isn't so much that they are actual not so nice thieves who shake down businesses, but rather that you can't just dump those gems you picked up on them without furthering their questline. My current character isn't really looking to help these people revive their criminal organization and would perhaps be more inclined to break them up to help the traders.

I hate the relationship with the Black Briar family. I wish it could be possible, once the rank of guild master is obtained, to go on a crusade to free the guild (and Riften) from the influence of this family of gangsters.

Still, the first few quests in the thieves guild are about collecting "protection" money and cashing in on loans. That has little to do with actual thievery, imo. Extortion is something common highwaymen do, not members of the thieves guild.

My problem with the Thieves Guild in Skyrim is that even though you use thief-class skills, you're not doing thief-class work. It's alot more mercenary. Even though I thought the OB Thieves Guild questline was a bit too rosy pink, I liked the fact that I was basically working for my own benefit first, the guild second, and NEVER some established government law-and-order types (even if their type of law-and-order is thuggery). It's more like the TG is just an part of a larger criminal organization. No independence. Sure, it makes sense for a Thieves Guild to have high-level connections, and do occasional jobs for them, but the price would be high and mixing would be very rare. Seems to me this 'Thieves Guild' would be much more at home in Bravil - where they would be called thugs (a rose by another other name...)

I have to agree with the OP. After MW and OB I wasn't actually expecting to be EVIL to be in the thieves guild. I thought I'd be part of an Empire santioned group that are highly trained at rogue-like skills. Instead I get in with a bunch of thugs and bullies who only care about themselves. I'm still going to finish the quests, but I won't be playing this character anymore afterward.

On a side note I didn't expect to have to become a to be in the fighters guild either.

Odd place Skyrim...