Oh look it's that article

It was said by BGS themselves that TES:V would be made using a heavily updated version of Gamebryo.

Playing in third person I feel less involved in the personal role-play of the character, I just feel like I am watching some other person role playing, but ok, on the occasion when I do switch to 3rd person to see what I look like, it would be good to see that my animation was as good and fluid as the other characters that I see in the game ... and fluid animation of other characters in Fallout3 are indeed very good ... it's also a good reason not to ever go back to turn-base play, which some have advocated.

After watching your characters beautifully fluidly move in every circumstance in Resident Evil 4, Gears of War and especially Mass Effect, first person shooters feel completely obsolete with gun as your only connection to the world.
I can't understand why you would feel like that, I feel just the opposite, and not to mention how great everything looks and feels when the action happens.

Because different people approach the game in different ways. Obviously there's something about the FPS approach that appeal to people or they wouldn't be so popular. That's one of the great things about Fallout, and other Bethesda games, you have a choice as to how you want to play the game. Personally I'm having a hard time going back to manipulating some onscreen avatar after playing in first person, it just doesn't feel right. I recently bought Dragon Age: Origins and I'm having a hard time getting into it because of that. After trying it out for a short while, I found myself back to player Fallout.

Well my view is as it would be in reality (in first person view) which for me makes it a more real role-play ... my gun really would be what I saw immediately in front of me. It's a more immersive role-play for me than sitting back watching a video of myself. I also don't see what is behind of me which as well adds to the role play realism.

So by this logic, you feel completely disconnected from the world in which you live, since you can't watch yourself walk through it and interact with it from behind yourself?

Is posting here surreal for you, since you can't watch over your own shoulder but must watch your arms typing as your only connection to the world?

Real life feels completely obsolete to you? :confused:

If they learn from Bioware, all Bethesda games would be short linear stories that look good but end quick.

No, Bioware should learn from Bethesda.

You have it backwards. Beth should learn how to write properly without making plotholes of a size of a truck, and Bioware should learn how to sandbox.

The depth of TES lore is nowhere near that of Dragon Age lore. If Bioware learned to sandbox however, they just might go ahead of Beth. For now, Beth are on top, atleast in my eyes. How many people are still playing Mass Effect 1? How many people are still playing Oblivion? Oblivion released before, and there are still more fans of it. That means something..

So? Relase date means nothing. And of course there will be MORE people playing the OLDER game, duh. Do you also know how many people played Baldur's Gate? That one was relased long time before Oblivion, so according to your anology should be superior. :rolleyes:

Speaking about the lore, yes, they know how to make a great history of XY, but we are talking about F3, not Oblivion aren't we? I don't deny their ability in creating nice worlds and lore, but that still doesn't change the fact that storytelling and dialogues is certainly not gamesas's strongest suit. Yes I am looking at you, [INT] Response to 3-Dog, and Talon Mercs, who make up half of the population of the wasteland without any backstory or logical explanation. :cryvaultboy:

Yes, but Morrowind released a long time ago too. It's probably going stronger than Baldurs Gate.

This isn't just a Fallout 3-Mass Effect comparison when you say all the works of gamesas are not up to par with all the works of Bioware. Some lines in Fallout 3 weren't very good, but I remember the cheese oozing out of Mass Effect 1 too, in some of the lines. The story of Fallout, Oblivion, and Morrowind are great, save for the ending of Fallout 3. New Vegas' story is pretty well told too. Don't forget WET either.

Also, what attracts the most people in Fallout and Oblivion is the fact that it's an entire world in which you can do anything you like, and roleplay an actual life. Can you eat in Mass Effect? No. Can you sleep in Mass Effect? No. Can you choose your occupation? No. Can you get a house? No.

All these things are missing, and that's what an RPG is all about. Im not saying Mass Effect and Dragon Age aren't awesome games, they are, definitely, and I absolutely love them. They just can't touch TES or Fallout from an RP stand-point. In the end, to most people; that's what matters.

First off, Morriwnd was relased in 2003. BG1 in 1998, so there.

Second, WET which was a crappy arcadey game was not developed by Bethesda Game Studios and doesn't seem to have any deep story like Morrowind or BG. It's just a mashup of Kill Bill and Tarantino violence with backflips and tequilla.

Third, RP-ing is a subjective matter. Like some person before me said, "I'd rather know what the hell is going on in the box instead of having more sand", I just guess I am that kind of person. Sure, all these aspects like owning a house going whenever you want is nice, but it totally falls apart for me when it's presented in such a simplistic, cheap and dumb way ala F3. Bioware does not have this, but not being able to own a house is not making Mass Effect 1 less of an RPG. Ever heard of the Gothic series for example? It also doesn't have this RP-stuff and is widely praised as an RPG.

Main thing in Bioware games is(or was, now in EA's grip) engaging story, deep, fleshed out characters and dialogue. There is a reason why there's a 'Talimancer' group on their forums. Can you for example see people praising the same way companions such as Jericho(jerichomancers?) or Butch(butcho.... erm, that doesn't sound right)?

But different strokes for different folks I guess. :shrug:

Well, groups aren't exactly allowed here, but there used to be an Enclave fanclub. I had an Enclave thread myself, which claimed not to be one, but in essence; was. So, yeah, there is a following here, if you think there isn't. There's a pretty strong Fallout following on deviantArt too, incase you didn't know.

I'll agree that Bioware is much more engaging, in a straight line, but what then? After the 10 or so hour campaign what do you do? Let's say you stretch it, and double the time. 20 hours? Double that even, 40 hours?

Oblivion was 60 hours in a straight line, and most have spent more. There probably isn't a single person on the forums who has spent less than a hundred hours on either Fallout 3, Morrowind, or Oblivion. Can Bioware say that about any of their games? I doubt it.

Im not even that hardcoe, and I've spend well over 300 hours on both Fallout 3 and Oblivion.. With Mass Effect and Dragon Age, 50 hours would be stretching it..

So replay the game again as a different character with different skillset then? One thing that annoys me in Bethgames is that no matter how you play, you WILL eventually become a god-like character and master-of-all-trades thus destroying the replay value. Nothing like the Renegade/Paragon kind of choices are present.

Doing everything and being able to wander endlessly is nice, but it's certainly not MY definition of an RPG core. That sounds like a simulator

Bioware and gamesas do their RPGs in different ways,( and last time I remember we were talking about the quality of writing, not game mechanics, but so be it.), there's no disputing in that.

And ahem, I have personally spent like what.... 4 years playing and modding BG1 and 2, and have like over 300 hours in the Mass Effect series. And so do thousands of people, you want to compare fan communities now? :facepalm:

I already agreed with you that the story-telling is much better done in Bioware games. They are indeed deep as well, Im just saying, they aren't nearly as deep as Beth games, and in my opinion, open-world in RPG's are what make them great. Also, if you think Oblivion or Fallout has no replay value, we certainly have obscenely different ways of seeing things.. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

haha sorry if I came out a bit rude then.

Like I said, we both have a different view on "what is an RPG" then. While I like sandboxing and open world, I also want something that makes it more plausible and logical(in the case of F3). And deep. Well, maybe I am just too spoiled from reading too many romance or fantasy novels, haha. :celebration:

Yea, in the end it probably boils down to preference.

In which case, it's best if Bioware and Bethesda stay away from each other. Each can cater to their own fans. If they get in each others way, and copy each other, we'll be left with some strange hybrid.

Actually, now that I think of it, if Bioware and Bethesda had a child; it would probably be Lionhead.

Funny...in the version of RE4 I played, it was like swimming through molasses. I could only stomach about thirty minutes before the combination of frustration at moving like I was swimming through molasses and motion-sickness got to be too much for me and I quit for good. I love the concept of the RE games but the actual game mechanics make them unplayable for me. And since Bioware turned ME2 into a rail shooter to pander to MW2 and GOW players......I'd prefer they stay far away from Fallout.

And you couldn't in ME1? By the second playthrough my Adept was practically unstoppable, thanks to New Game+. He couldn't use a sniper rifle...but then he didn't need to snipe threats from a distance. And Paragon/Renegade isn't all it's cracked up to be.....most of the big Renegade choices are immensely counter-productive to the Mission. If Bioware had any guts they'd reward a "Renegade" player with being crushed by the Reapers in ME3 as Shepard would have no friends with neither Cerebus or the Alliance trusting him, the Rachni exterminated, the Krogan even more alienated than they were, the humans being hated and feared throughout Citadel Space as usurpers for killing the council and stealing it's crown, and the Geth probably seething because Shepard encouraged the Quarians to try to reclaim thier Homeworld even though the Geth are too strong for them to defeat.

Yeah right! Obviously you've never played Baldur's Gate 2. They know exactly how to make long involved games with good story lines, they've probably just chosen not to in their more recent games. It no doubt doesn't help having EA looking over their shoulder these days.

Nice, you've just perfectly sumed up why Bio's writing is obviously more complex and superior to Beth's. Thank you very much.

Also, must disagree about the renegade choices though. For me it's the '[censored]' approach, rather than 'stupid evil' that usually gets the job done. e.g. threatening someone to get what you want. And who says it won't bite you in the ass back in ME3? Have you played that game already? Or are we just speculating? For me, Bio always delivered what they promised in the terms of story and immersion(albeit, with some plotholes too). I think the only time I got dissapointed with 'em was Mass Effect 2 with the dumbed down RPG elements, and DA where I realized that choosing origin impacts only the first hour of an otherwise great game.

IMO, Bioware learned from the Fallout series... err did Black Isle do both FO1 and BG1? I can not remember that far back, hehe. Bioware now puts some real meat into the dialogue and it isn't so black & white as back in the day. As for sandbox games... I never did finish Oblivion because of the opponent scaling and the totally messed up leveling system. I had a character that was level 1 for most of the game and another where I was level 7 before I finished the character creation sequence..... I think I only played it about 1/2 way through before I had enough. FO 3 was great fro a single play through.... but it felt really stale for me every time I tried new characters. I can play through DA:O and ME games many times because the skill sets for character types give me such different experiences in combat. I guess it is the fact that FO 3 combat strategy is the exact same for EVERY character type. NV made combat feel a bit different when using different weapon types and it is a huge step in the right direction.... maybe if they made SPECIALleffect skills more. Not skill point-wise, have them effect skills in ways that can make or break the skill if you take the stat to extremes. That seems to be the main problem with FO 3... mindless point, click, move to next target. In NV I found myself actually using the explosive skill for certain situations and different guns based on opponent type and distance.

I just hope that FO4 isn't another version of "grind experience until you can do everything" before interacting with NPCS and doing quests.

I've never had a problem with ME's story....I replayed ME1 six times. I found ME2 to be somewhat disappointing, even though I liked most of the characters.

Of course I'm speculating.....ME3 is a year or more away. While I have no connections to the devs, I am confident that the climix of the story will be Shepard having a High-Noon winner-take-all showdown with the Reapers in which second prize is racial extinction. A Paragon character will have a large stack of markers to call in for that final showdown....a Renegade, not so much. What I meant is I would be very impressed if they had the guts to make it so that if you made enough of the correct decisions across the three games, victory would be challenging (to befit the stakes and make the win meaningful to the player) but achievable. If you made too many bad decisions, however, they don't save the player from reaping what they sowed and let them fail. It would take guts, because it would infuriate a lot of people, but I think it would be cool.

Funny.

No thanks! Keep Bioware stuff for their games. I prefer the "not so good" dialogues of Beth games over linear levels and no freedom at all in Bioware games (DA for example). I don't see that deep stories in their games lately. Just be a hero and save the world type, like almost any game including Beth games.

Bioware fans, you guys can walk all days in corridor like maps and read your superb stories, I prefer to explore the vast open world of any Beth game.