The Vigilants of Stendarr hunt down daedra, vampires, lycanthropes, and witches but as far as I know daedra worship is not illegal in the Empire. How can they justify hunting down daedra worshipers? A vigil asks for you to help him break into a house in Markarth simply because it is suspected that it is used for daedra worship.... surely breaking into this house is illegal. The vigils will also demand that you give them any daedric artifacts in your possession and then attack if you refuse.... this does not seem legal either.

Certainly the worship of daedra has been at least permitted in the empire, and it is even central to the religion of the dunmer and orcs and presumably they aren't harassing people at daedric shrines.

I don't think it has been stated that vampirism or lycanthropy are illegal either. Perhaps we can safely assume that they are illegal considering everyone attacks you at stage 4 in vanilla Skyrim and you get arrested for having been seen transform into a werewolf (even if you don't harm anyone). Perhaps the vigils can legally justify hunting vampires and lycanthropes but I have a hard time believing that they aren't breaking the law in how they go about daedra worship.

I had similar thoughts with the Mages Guild's ban on necromancy. Necromancy was a legal practice in the Empire and the guild still sent me to slaughter them in their caves. Then there's the Fighters Guild storming and massacring the Blackwood Company for taking some of their business.....

Now I want to form an order of warriors to hunt down the vigils of Stendarr and stop their criminal ways. Have I missed something?

While not always strictly illegal per se, much of Tamriel reviles direct worship of the Princes, whose worshipers are forced to construct shrines far away from prying eyes, which should say a lot about the current situation. That's only made worse after the Oblivion Crisis, which justifiably made paranoia about the Daedra that much worse. Given that nearly everyone reviles vampires and lycanthropes both in equal measure, no one is going to shed any tears over them being hunted down either. So, its not strictly legal, but its not illegal to hunt them down either. Fighters Guild, Knights of the Lamp, and other organizations who are intrinsically tied to the Empire during its time all basically did the same thing.

So the question is whether or not they can overstep their bounds. Its possible, but I think this would vary from place to place. Unless the Viglients in question are exceptionally zealous in their doctrines, I wouldn't expect anyone to mind them too much. Hammerfell, regardless as to how they feel about foreign religions would not mind them due to a mutual hatred of things like Daedra and mages in general, operating in High Rock would be a more difficult goal due to many competeing knightly orders and magical hoo-ha being incredibly uncommon. I doubt they'd also be tolerated in Morrowind, where the "Good Daedra" are know the de-facto religion.

The Fighter's Guild didn't massacre the Blackwood company for stealing their business. They sent you to infiltrate them to find out what made them so powerful. What you found was that they were illegally using hist sap and, worse still, murdering entire villages full of people. It wasn't until that point that the Guild finally took them out. I'd imagine that with their centuries-old influence they were able to convince the Count of Leyawiin that what they did was a service, and indeed it was.

I imagine they primarily go after the worst Daedra worshipers such as those who revere Mehrunes Dagon and Molag Bal. The Vigilants of Stendarr also presumably operate only within the Empire's borders, where it is entirely possible that Daedric worship was banned. They haven't really addressed much on the public views on Daedric worship in the Empire in the Fourth Era, so it is certainly possible that the Oblivion Crisis and the Umbriel incident fueled extreme prejudice and discrimination against Daedric worshipers to the point of it becoming a crime punishable by death or something. Even if Daedric worship is technically still legal in the Empire, then it is possible that the Vigilants are allowed to do whatever they want even if they're breaking the laws as they target those that most people in the Empire fear.

As far as necromancy goes, necromancy is probably one of the most purely evil things anyone can do in Nirn (along with performing the Black Sacrament). According to the lore, the souls used in necromancy often wind up stuck indefinitely in places like the Soul Cairn or Coldharbour, and using necromancy on the sentient victims is said to be torturous. I think general animosity against necromancers is generally understandable. It's just that Oblivion did a terrible job at trying to convince you that "necromancer equals pure evil incarnate" since they simply expected people to assume that's how necromancers are in any fantasy story for whatever reason. A lot of stuff in Oblivion can be argued to be generically portrayed.

There's probably better ways to describe how necromancy works in the lore, but typical necromancers aren't exactly the nicest people around in Tamriel, particularly the ones who follow Mannimarco. That's not to say that everyone in the lore who has ever used necromancy is in fact "evil", just that there's terrible deeds that often must be done in order to practice the necromantic arts and that makes any character who uses it morally grey at best.

Most necromancers only use bodies that have already died, with which there is no soul to do anything to. Reanimating the corpse is done after the fact with magic, typically using white souls (those of lesser creatures) instead of black. The Soul Cairn only comes into play when using Black Soul Gems or when directly dealing with the Ideal Masters, while Coldharbour only applies when the victim is somehow stained by Molag Bal (generally prior to death, though the politics of the Daedric Princes can shuffle souls from one prince to another too; either way, you need to be in the clutches of a Daedric Prince in the first place).

Did Hannibal Traven drive so many necromancers-on-the-side into the arms of Mannimarco and his Worm Cult with his ban.. or was the Worm Cult membership already there and his ban on necromancy simply pulled the rug out from under them and denied them the veneer of reputability?

Both. Its likely that many otherwise upstanding guild members were pushed into a cult that could have already existed and capitalized on Traven's iron clad grasp on the idiot ball.

Necromancy isn't necessarily a horrible thing on its own. Its usually what I imagine to be incredibly simple Daedra bound to the corpse, and reputable Mages that follow protocol wait for the soul of the desceased to pass so they both don't have to struggle for dominance with it and subject it to binding. Its when you start getting into "I kill milk maids and sleep with their ghosts" territory is when things start getting weird.

Now, now, we can't judge these people too harshly. If they want to do that, let them be

I agree that daedra worship could be illegal. As far as I can recall, I don't remember any dialogue saying it is still legal. I imagine that the vigilants do operate outside the Empire however such as in Hammerfell or the Dominion. If there is a place in Tamriel where daedra worship is illegal, I imagine it is in the Dominion as the Altmer traditionally despise daedra worship. If it is illegal then it seems strange how these large shrines to princes like Boethia, Azura, Meridia, and especially Dagon are permitted. If it were illegal than I would imagine that these massive statues would have been torn down after the oblivion crisis. The fact that many openly worship the daedra, particularly the dunmer and orcs, and that these statues exist with followers worshiping at them seems to indicate that the practice is still legal in the Empire. And if most citizens have no problem with the vigilants attacking people for worshiping daedra, then why not just make it illegal?

I actually don't think necromancy is innately evil, it is only evil if you misuse it. Blasting innocent people with fire magic or manipulating them with illusion magic is evil but that doesn't make the schools of destruction and illusion innately evil types of magic. Is it true that necromancy is the placing of lesser daedra or white souls into dead bodies? I always thought you were calling the original soul back into the body temporarily and that's why in Skyrim reanimations always moan and say things like "finally...free..." or "thank you" when they get killed again. And it seems that necromancers in-game think that they are reanimating the original person like Calxto trying to resurrect his sister, or Mannimarco saying he will resurrect one of his followers that you killed. If this is the case then you could still study necromancy provided that an individual consents to being reanimated before they die, similar to people donating their bodies to science today. They could stipulate that they only want to be reanimated x number of times or only under certain conditions. Necromancy does have a large potential to be abused (just like Destruction and every other school) but it can still be studied in a controlled and safe way. If Traven took this approach to necromancy then perhaps he wouldn't have pushed so many mages that were simply curious about the art into the arms of Mannimarco. I will admit though that the use of black soul gems is pretty [censored]** up as it permanently traps people in the Soul Cairn.

And if the general public really dislikes necromancy to the point where they are fine with the guild hunting down its practitioners, then why not just put a ban on the entire practice? Like the Empire bans the use of levitation magic but is too worried about public backlash to ban the use of black soul gems and creation of zombies?

Personally I can't help but feel that the Levitation Act is the most worthless piece of lore Bethesda has ever made, and this is coming from someone who has never called any piece of lore worthless. It just raises way to many problems then it solved.

Basically, this is how it went down.

Fan: Why isn't there any Levitation in Oblivion?

Bethesda: Uh, well you see, its, uh, illegal. Yes, the Empire made it illegal.

Fan: But even if it was, wouldn't it still be widely known? Wouldn't we logically be able to still learn it illegally? I mean, Skooma and Black Soul Gems have been illegal longer than levitation, but people still know how to make them. Plus its not like the PC is a law abiding citizen. They escape from prison at the beginning of the game, and they can join a cult of assassins and an organized crime group, so...

Bethesda: *Throws down a smoke bomb and escapes through a window*

Seriously, Bethesda didn't need to make up a lore reason why no one knows levitation in Oblivion. No one has Spears or Medium Armor or Crossbows in Oblivion, but there isn't a Spear Act or Medium Armor Act or Crossbow Act. All Bethesda had to do was say "We didn't think Levitation would work with Oblivion's gameplay" and everyone could have gone on their way, but no, they just had to make a lore piece about it so they could open themselves up to all sorts of stupidity.

Honestly think they're only allowed in Skyrim because, well, backwards ways of thinking and the thought all daedra are bad and their worshipers are bad. They're probably not as prominent in High Rock or Cyrodiil or take a more McCarthy approach in those provinces by doing their little "THIS PERSON IS BAD AND A DAEDRA WORSHIPER" to just isolate people and attack without regard to any actual evidence just to get political points.

Hannibal Traven, as head of the Guild of Mages, set Guild policy so that Mages Guild members would not be allowed to practice or research necromancy, and they would deny services to those who practiced it openly. It is a guild policy, borne from Traven's own morality, but that's the extent of it.

This was a highly controversial move. Some Mages Guild members -- even as high up as Council members -- resigned in protest. However, some mages who were known necromancers chose to forgo the practice and remain in the guild (Kalthar and presumably Baeralorn).

However, the necromancer enemy types that the player can fight are members of Mannimarco's Order of the Black Worm. Judging from the contents of their lairs, these necromancers rob graves, invade burial sites, desecrate chapels, and release undead into populated areas (like Raelyn the Gravefinder). Within the Mages Guild questline, members of the Order kill off newcomers to the Mages Guild, attack and kill Guild members, try to pick off a high-ranking guild member through deception, transfigure an informant into a thrall, destroy a Mages Guild guildhall, and plan all-out war on the Guild -- all for banning an avenue of research of questionable morality and legality (grave robbing is illegal in the Empire), and also implied to be dangerous.

The Mages Guild has a monopoly on the practice of magic within the Empire. Unless otherwise stated by law, the Mages Guild controls who can practice magic. It's not merely "guild policy", in that you can do it on your own without any connections to the MG, but the stance of those who say what's allowed within the Empire. http://uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Unsanctioned_Training of what the MG can do... if you're not sanctioned by them for training, the MG is authorized to kill you to make you stop (and this over restoration, probably the least objectionable school of magic there is). To continue with necromancy after the policy was made was to effectively become an outlaw.

That's not exactly true. The attacks on the Mages Guild and its members are orchestrated by Mannimarco (and according to J'skar, Mannimarco himself was on hand during the destruction of the Bruma guild hall). Mannimarco used the banning as a rallying call, but the incidents against the guild are Mannimarco's retaliation for things Gallerion and the Mages Guild had done to him, not simply people who are angry at being unable to practice necromancy.



Prior to the banning, it was completely legal, as long as it was with guild sanction. I don't remember where I read it, but IIRC the Empire itself provided corpses of deceased bandits that they could use for study. I also imagine there are those that would donate their bodies for such things after they're dead (like organ donation for research).

Firstly, according to "Souls, Black and White," using black soul gems has the potential to damage the user's soul if the gem is not made exactly.

Secondly, according to "Corpse Preparation," a book written for necromancers by a necromancer, the theft of corpses or slaves (or creating one's own corpses) is advocated. Necromancy seems to be entirely concerned with manipulating black souls and raising undead servants, as a positive use of the craft, extending lifespans, is not a "practical" use.

Thirdly, according to "The Black Arts on Trial," Traven's ban on necromancy is less a matter of a new restriction and more a matter of enforcing existing standards. The sentence "Upon this revelation, the Knights of the Lamp attempted to arrest her at the Guildhouse in Orsinium, but she made good her escape" can be read several different ways. The first interpretation I came to was that Traven ordered the Knights to arrest Master gra-Kogg -- it's important to note that according to subtext in "Corpse Preparation," necromancy is not legal in Orsinium, so her arrest may be justified by local laws. It's also possible to come to the conclusion that the Knights made the decision to arrest her of their own accord, without Traven's instruction.

Finally, according to the Mages Guild Charter, "The Guild of Mages provides benefits to scholars of magic and established laws regarding the proper use of magic." This either means that the Guild is intended to only provide benefits to scholars who obey the "proper use of magic," or "established" should be "establishes," in which case the Guild has the power to dictate these laws.


You are using Ranis Aythrys' questionable conduct as steward of the Balmora guildhall as the actions of the Mages Guild as a whole. Ranis never asks you to kill Only-He-Stands-There, though the reward for doing so is greater; Only-He-Stands-There has no script and attacking him (he does not attack you himself) is a crime like any other. The Mages Guild does not have the authority to kill non-guild mages over competition, even if they actually have the power to regulate it -- and Ranis' word isn't particularly trustworthy.


Baeralorn carries shears and human bones, and retains his Mages Guild membership; Kalthar has a leveled list of necromancer spells; Falcar is a necromancer and has black soul gems; Caranya is presumably one of the "rare individuals who have proven themselves both highly skilled and highly cautious," being one of Traven's "most trusted advisors." The point is that despite the guild's overt ban, there are those who would retain their membership and practice in secret. We know that Caranya and Falcar are members of the Order of the Black Worm, and there's no indication that any of the necromancer enemies you can fight were former Mages Guild members. Assuming that "The Exodus" has any truth to it, former guild mages who have sided with Mannimarco are fanatically loyal to him, and frankly I have a hard time seeing anyone who would side with the King of Worms, call him a god, desecrate chapels, play with the corpses of children, and steal corpses or kill for their "Art" as victims of abuse by Traven's tyrannical rule -- all for a school whose simplest spells require "the spilling of blood," that's dangerous to practice for the user, that's almost entirely focused on creating undead servants, and whose positive effects have unnatural drawbacks.

There are many magic users that are not connected to the Mages Guild and some can even train you in magic (most of the master level trainers). They do this openly and legally. The Mages Guild has no authority to prevent people from individually practicing or teaching magic. And it is specifically stated that necromancy is still legal in the Empire despite the Guild ban on the practice.

But as previously mentioned, Necromancy doesn't inherently deal with black souls. It can, but so can enchanting.

Corpse Preparation is written by a necromancer of unknown reputation for an unknown audience. It also only appears in Morrowind, where necromancy has always been banned, thus the only way to do it there is with theft or murder. The book also states that the Empire provides the corpses of traitors and criminals in Cyrodiil, thereby offering a legitimate avenue, with Orsinium and High Rock potentially having similar setups. Elsweyr is apparently okay with people taking and buying corpses, which makes sense for a place that has such lax attitudes toward ownership.

A law that is not enforced has no weight. Like I said, unless stated otherwise by the Empire itself, the Mages Guild says who can or can't practice magic within the Empire. If the Mages Guild does not enforce its restrictions on necromancy, then you will find practitioners with the sanction of the guild.

I would say that should be "establishes", since the sentence is grammatically incorrect with such mixed tenses (the present-tense "provides" and the past-tense "established").

So "have someone killed for teaching magic while not part of the guild" is merely "questionable conduct"? It's http://uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Recruit_or_Kill_Llarar_Bereloth with her, either. If she doesn't have the authority to do this, then why is she allowed to both by law enforcement and the guild? The only way she can get in any kind of trouble is if you lie and claim she's a Telvanni spy.

Sure, I imagine some just keep on with it in secret while within the guild. But there are those that pick one or the other. And those that stand against the guild are made outlaws because of it.

You just contradicted yourself. Caranya and Falcar are necromancer enemies you can fight who were Mages Guild members.

Those who sided with Mannimarco because of Traven's policies were not the only ones affected by his policies. Further, other schools of magic also have negative effects for not only the user, but those around them. Destruction, for instance, is a school whose primary purpose is to break and damage things, especially for apprentices who wouldn't have that great of control over it. Mysticism requires the user to temporarily induce insanity within themselves, since it relies on rejecting logic and reality. Illusion's primary purpose is to trick people.

"Necromancy" itself is not that clean cut, either. As The Black Arts On Trial points out, "When a student of Conjuration summons a guardian ghost, he is touching on the School of Necromancy. When a student of Enchantment uses a trapped soul, he too may be considered guilty of a Black Art. The School of Mysticism, as I have stated before, has some kinship with Necromancy as well." The schools of magic are entirely artificial constructs, so who's to say where the School of Necromancy really starts and ends? Necromancy may require someone to die (by definition; necromancy means 'the magic of the dead'), but it doesn't have to be through murder, it doesn't have to be with unwilling subjects, and it doesn't have to involve black souls.

EDIT
Do you have any examples in the 3rd Era? Aside from the Telvanni in Morrowind (who would be protected by the Armastice), the only examples I can think of are the various witch covens... but in those cases I'd point out that they operate in very remote regions and are hard to find. It's entirely possible they aren't operating legally.

Necromancy may be technically legal, but as long as the MG doesn't sanction practitioners, there's no legal way to practice it. It's a common political trick... you don't need to explicitly make it illegal, but you make it impossible for anyone to do it legally. As a real-life example, in some states in the U.S. it's legal to own certain types of guns as long as you have an appropriate license, but no one who can give those licenses will. So it's technically legal, but you can't do it anyway.

Well, the College of Winterhold IIRC has had its own policies regarding magic use and generally was completely autonomous from the Mages Guild, so there is a precedent at least. Places like Summerset (especially the Psijiic Order) and High Rock could probably easily have different, non-Guild but legal options available to anyone who wants to apprentice under someone else, or other magical institutions like the College. There's also the city of Elinhir in Hammerfell, also known as the city of mages. Impossible to say what it was like in the 3rd era though, and if it had its own separate institutions. It was born of a splinter faction from within the Mages Guild, and would probably resist its influence like Synod did with Winterhold.

I'd say the Guilds ability to enforce its own edicts depends on who is functionally in control of the region as far as magic is concerned.

This is an example of the practice being dangerous for the caster.


They don't say who can practice magic. It's not like needing to be a member of the American Bar Association to practice law. This is more like learning outside of an institution, such as a school or college; a local university can't stop me from learning about, say, chemistry on my own, even potentially becoming incredibly learned in the subject. However, laws would prevent my accessing certain chemicals or from damaging the property of others through reckless experimentation, and I would most likely never be hired to teach or make practical use of my knowledge without a degree from a credible institution.

Of course, learning to use magic isn't quite the same thing, but the sentiment is the same. Some court mages (explicitly) studied at institutions like the College of Winterhold or Arcane University or have Mages Guild membership, alchemists are often independent, healers are affiliated with temples or religious groups rather than research institutions -- but the Mages Guild doesn't have power over the hiring of court mages, or who sets up an apothecary, or who can heal you. So claiming they get to decide who can and can't practice magic is wrong.


My point being that the Mages Guild is well within its rights to ban necromancy's practice by its members.


It's an understatement, and I wasn't defending her. But don't take her actions as meaning the Mages Guild has any delegated power over such things. Killing Breloth is a crime like any other -- there's nothing scripted to let you get away with it (like Morag Tong writs), and he doesn't attack you himself.

To quote Master Aryon, "According to one interpretation of the Armistice, only the Mages Guild can officially offer spells and training to non-members." While we know this isn't true in the game itself (Telvanni and Temple members sell spells with no apparent repercussions to those who do so), this doesn't say anything about death being an acceptable punishment, nor does it say that the Guild will be the entity doing so. Further, Aryon's wording suggests that this is hardly a settled issue (my assumption would be that the Mages Guild claims it has such power, but that the Temple and Telvanni, and independent spell merchants, lobby against it).

It's still odd that Aryon would say "according to one interpretation" (which suggests that this is a current political issue) while Athyn Sarethi would talk about "overturning" the monopoly (as if said monopoly is codified in law).


My point being that there's a certain type of person who gets told "no" and starts crying "the Order of the Black Worm will feast on your soul."


"Necromancer enemy" meaning generic necromancer, not two named NPCs, one of whom is a murderous subversive and the other claims that she'd "like to have you mostly intact, so Mannimarco can svck the marrow from your bones."


Necromancy as an avenue of study seems to consist entirely of raising undead servants or trapping the souls of mortals, either for enchanting, ritual purposes, or to imbue into said undead servants. Even if the corpse were acquired legally (and many are not), the raised dead are forced to act against their will and are aware of it. Making use of a black soul consigns the soul to the Soul Cairn for eternity.

Even Destruction can be channeled into healing (see "The Liturgy of Affliction"), but the positive uses of necromancy either have heavy drawbacks (assuming that the rumors about Therana being sustained by it are true) or are definitely wishes from a monkey's paw ("The Exodus"). If its research arrives at positive results, it's certainly slow-moving. Its most overt uses are dangerous, selfish, and unconscionable, and many of its practitioners are sociopathic.

While it might be said that to ban the practice is a cure worse than the ill, Traven's position, though he's a bit of a knight Templar, is understandable, and it's simply incorrect to act as if the mages who had to give up the practice were merely innocent researchers.


With regards to discussing reaching positive results through necromancy, there's one person who did it: Relmyna Verenim, capable of perfect resurrection. She doesn't seem to have labored to discover it, so I'd chalk it up to Sheogorath's power (Molag Bal is also capable of reviving mortals on at least two occasions). Whether requiring the power of a Daedric prince to achieve the presumable inevitable goal of necromancy makes it unfeasible is up to you to decide.

The master level trainers for Alchemy, Alteration, Conjuration, Destruction, and Restoration in Oblivion all are non Guild members and offer to train you for gold. One is an alchemist with his own private shop, one is a daedra worshiper, and another is a healer. Also Dovyn Aren(citizen) and Abhuki (an inn keeper) offer alteration training. Esbern (priest), Hil the Tall (priest) and Jantus Brolus (citizen) offer illusion training. Arentus Flavius (Chapel Primate) offers conjuration training and Brotch Calus (citizen) offers Alchemy training. None of them are members of the Guild. Also Count Janus Hassildor is rumored to be a powerful sorcerer but has no official connection to the Guild. Sulinus Vassinus of the Guild also states "The guild can provide you with some training, but the best trainers are usually very hard to find." This indicates that there are high level mages that are not connected to, or sanctioned by, the Guild.

The Guild was set up to make magic more accessible to common, every day people by the purchasing of magical items such as soul gems or scrolls as well as providing a place for aspiring mages to practice together, share research, and learn from each other. It does not mandate that all aspiring mages must become members or be recognized by the guild as there are other institutions (Winterhold) and individuals that learn magic and sell their services independently.

So there is still room for necromancers to practice their skill independently of the Mages Guild so long as they do not run afoul of the law, such as by killing innocent people to provide bodies.

Even if most necromancers are evil and necromancy is used for selfish and abhorrent reasons most of the time (as it no doubt is) that does not make the practice innately evil. There is still some (though admittedly little) room for it to be studied legitimately. If the corpse is acquired legally and a person in life consents to being resurrected in death for the purposes of advancing the knowledge in the field, then I see no moral issue. Many people left the Mages Guild after the ban and at least some of them joined Mannimarco. Presumably not all of the members that practiced necromancy were evil but just curious scholars and at the very least, Traven's ban caused them to leave the Guild when they would otherwise have been there to fight against Mannimarco and at the very least undermined the Guild's strength.

I agree that the use of black soul gems should be banned and illegal as it condemns souls to the Soul Cairn. The only instance where perhaps the Empire could allow it would be for the absolute worst condemned criminals. However, even this I would find to be morally objectionable. Black soul gems are not necessary for the reanimation of corpses however, and thus banning their use does not entail that you must ban all other aspects of necromancy (like reanimation).

You can ban all the overtly evil and negative aspects of necromancy such as the use of black soul gems, or killing innocent people for corpses, without banning the morally neutral and potentially useful aspects (reanimation with consent). Just as you can make blowing innocent people up with fire balls or burning houses down illegal without banning the use of destruction magic for self defense. This seems like the most reasonable approach to take with necromancy.

I don't understand what you mean. How is "Necromancy doesn't only use black souls" an example of "the practice being dangerous for the caster"?

Can you say these court mages don't have guild sanction? Though even if not, I imagine court mages are exempt since they're under the direct employ of the Empire.



I also wouldn't say alchemy has anything to do with magic, per se. It being a mage skill in earlier games is purely game mechanics.

And my point is that those people who fleed to Mannimarco weren't the only ones affected by the ban.

What's the difference? A necromancer is a necromancer. They have names even if the game doesn't given them one, just like Bandits and Marauders. Who's to say what they were doing before you ran into them?

Even necromancy's detractors agree that it's an avenue worth studying, meaning there is information to gain by practicing it, they disagree on whether or not it's too dangerous to teach students. And again, necromancy doesn't inherently deal with black souls. It deals with soul manipulation in general, for trapping and applying to objects, with white souls, black souls, daedric souls, etc. It can be used to reanimate dead tissue, and prolong life (as such it even has ties to restoration). Necromancy is an inseparable part of enchanting, has ties to restoration, and has its fingers in conjuration and mysticism. It has far more application than merely "raising undead servants".

Sure, when you get skilled enough to wield it with the necessary precision. Both sides of the necromancy debate say the same thing about necromancy, that it's not so dangerous when you're skilled enough to wield it properly, but it's the unskilled/students that present the main danger... just like Destruction.

It is not incorrect to say that some necromancers were innocent practitioners. Not all of them were, sure, but the same can be said of any magic school.

Are they not members of, or sanctioned by, the guild? Or are you just assuming since the game data doesn't have them in the Mages Guild faction? Hassildor of course has connections to the Mages Guild, as he works with them.

Just because there are independent individuals who provide training doesn't mean they're doing so legally. Was the College of Winterhold completely independent of the Mages Guild in the 3rd Era?

Since I saw it mentioned before the Mages guild only has a monopoly on public teaching but they can't arrest practitioners that belong to a faction, for instance Telvanni and the College of Winterhold then you have religions like the Imperial Temple and the Tribunal Temple that offer magic and healing teachings to members.

Also it's entirely possible that the monopoly is only in Morrowind as we see people in Oblivion that sold spells despite not being part of the mages guild. Honestly I would view what Traven was doing with punishing necromancers a big legal grey area or entirely illegal as we're never really shown any legal documentation the guild can just arrest anyone. It's possible he had connections in high places that let him get away with it which wouldn't surprise me.

Also I would like to make a point that "Souls, black and white" is kind of an untrustworthy source as it's author is really really against necromancy, this is a book written by a person who would later ban necromancy in the Mages Guild so it being filled with lies or propaganda like "black soul gems hurt the soul of those who use them" wouldn't surprise me and he also tried to arrest the one person who was calling him out on his bullcrap.

edit: nevermind I was thinking of Black Arts on Trial not Souls, Black and White.

There is no reason to believe that the lower level trainers are members of the guild and the quote I referenced above by Sulinus Vassinus provides very strong evidence that the master level trainers are not part of the Guild. I admit that the Mages Guild members are sometimes the ones that point you in the direction of the master level trainers and this could be taken as evidence that these trainers are in some way affiliated with, or sanctioned by the Guild but there is evidence to suggest that they are not sanctioned by them.

Olyn Seran is the master level destruction trainer and you can be referred to him by Alberic Litte, who is a Mages Guild member. Litte says "I've heard that there's a powerful conjurer off in the woods someplace, worshipping Molag Bal. Olyn Seran, I think his name was. I personally wouldn't go looking for him myself, but you might keep it in mind if you ever run across him." This indicates that the Mages Guild has no affiliation with Olyn Seran as the only member that ever mentions him doesn't even know his real location, saying he is "off in the woods someplace" and barely remembering his name. So here we have a member of the Mages Guild recommending that you go train with a master level mage that is not part of the guild, seems to be in no way affiliated with them, and that they have very little knowledge of.

Given this and the direct evidence given by Sulinus Vassinus that most of the master level trainers (all but two) are outside the Guild, and the lack of any evidence to indicate that they (or the lower level trainers) are sanctioned by the Guild seems to indicate that mages are allowed to learn magic on their own outside of the Mages Guild. The Guild remains an option for mages to use if they wish, or not.

Alchemy is certainly a part of the arcane arts. There are alchemists in every guildhall that sell potions and ingredients to the public.

To believe that the Mages Guild has total control over who practices magic would require assuming that all the non Guild trainers in Oblivion and even the common part time alchemists must have either obtained Guild approval or are breaking the law. As far as I can see, there is no good reason to assume any of this.

I disagree that the quote is "strong evidence" that they're not part of the guild. That quote merely means that the guild doesn't offer it. It's not a service that's waiting for you to use, you have to seek them out on your own and convince them to train you, and they're free to not train you if they don't want to.

Just because that one guild member doesn't know the specifics about where he is doesn't mean the guild as an organization doesn't know and hasn't sanctioned him. Though even if not, him being a master-level mage who keeps to himself away from civilization could simply mean that the guild doesn't consider him a priority... going after him would cost more time, money, and lives than they deem is worth it considering he isn't out in populated areas teaching any schmuck who wanders by, and isn't using his skill to spread destruction across the land.

And there are temples in every city that offers prayer services. Does that mean Divine Worship is only part of city life? Of course not.

I don't see what's wrong with that assumption. Must everyone you meet that offers otherwise-lawful services be on the right side of the law? Must they wear all their affiliations on their sleeve? If it weren't for the http://uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Unfriendly_Competition quest, would you know that all the traders in the Imperial City's market district are part of and operating under a Society that sets specific rules and regulations?