Continued from http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1210908-legion-supporters/page__st__100__gopid__18146442#entry18146442



Why is speed more important than any other consideration? And if civilizing the wastes is the goal then I have even less reason to support the Legion since they're attacking the NCR, an area that's already quite civilized, rather than continuing their campaigns in the East.

First off, why is the Legion bad for fighting the NCR and the NCR good for fighting the Legion? The Legion brings safety and order to chaotic lands in a very short timespan, while the NCR throws its own people into the fire and sometimes even abandons them (Camp Guardian) just to make profit, how is that better? The NCR is not the ideal nation to civilize the wastes, because they are inept. The Legion does the dirty, mean, and tough things that need to be done for the future, there NEEDS to be a unifying force, the NCR doesn't care about bringing civilization, it cares about annexing land to get richer and making the people back home happy, and not about uniting the wastes.

Expansion , and I would say time is a factor into bringing civilization after a apocalypse .

To put it bluntly, the Legion wouldn't exist if the NCR was as capable of civilizing land as quickly, but it isn't.

Legion attacked the NCR last I checked not the other way around. You suggested I should support the Legion because they bring civilization, terrible though it may be, much more swiftly but they're attacking the one area of the country that is definitely not in need of civilizing because Caesar wants his synthesis. Why should I support that?



Because the NCR's idea of civilization doesn't accept slavery, r@pe, torture, brainwashing, absolutism, misogyny, a luddite like refusal to use any technology that people may become too dependent on (whatever that means), and so on. And the reason the NCR is overstretched in the Mojave, as stated time and again, is because of the Legion draining all it's resources. So if the game offers me an option to remove that obstacle why wouldn't I take it?



So inept they've created a massive functioning nation state from a single small village in less than a century.

Okay so explain to me why the dirty, mean, tough things the Legion does need to be done for the future. Why does the unifying force have to be Caesar's Legion? Why is an autocratic, fundamentalist state that has yet to weather a single change of leadership and that is overwhelmingly dependent on the quality of that leadership the better choice in the long term?

The Legion made more with less in less time. I'm not saying I'm happy with the devs pitting the two against each other, I'm just saying the Legion is more capable of bringing civilization to more people much quicker.

Do we really need this? I mean another NCR Vs. Legion, I think this is pointless. Everyone play's there game differently and has there own personal opinon. Don't bag on them if they don't have same ideas as you. That's just wrong. It makes me sad to see another thread like this. :sadvaultboy: There's nothing wrong with liking NCR and there's nothing wrong with liking Legion.

But their civilization is awful so if I have a choice between them spreading their vision of civilization rapidly or some other faction doing it at a slower, less competent pace there is no reason for me to pick the Legion just because they're fast.

There are way worse civilizations and factions in Real Life and Fallout, many of which I have seen... We only have seen the Legion from the attacking point of view, eventually I am sure we will see them defending against something, and perspectives will change.

That is true. The Mojave is the NCR homefront, while it's the Legion's battlefront.

I wouldn't necesarily say civilization in the Legion's case, but they do bring everything together much quicker. How about it goes traditionally with Europe, except in America. Greeks have their thing going such as Alexander the Great (not necesarrily greek, but its to the point) They get their big ol empire, it collapses, this is the NCR. Legion is Rome they get there empire for all those years, collapses by barbarians, barbarians settle European states along with roman remnants, short version of it, and start to make countries. If anything this is what I think will happen in the hundreds of years to come to the wastes of America. It will turn into multiple countrie/nations and so on.

How is trying to have a debate about why the Legion is inferior to the other options you get in New Vegas bagging on anyone? If you don't want to discuss your opinions that's fine but don't claim having a discussion about others opinions is somehow being insulting.

Because you straight up assume that they are inferior, that is an insult to those who support it, and you bag on them for not sharing your NCR-biased opinion.



To you, but you say that from the comfort of the real world, I'm sure if you lived in Arizona before the Legion, you'd have a different perspective. You seem to forget that it is a post-nuclear world, "r@pe" and murder might as well be the norm, because the NCR doesn't care about anyone but its own people, so someone else had to come along and civilize the wastes, so the Legion was created to fill that need, to stop slaughters by slaughtering the slaughterers.

Unless you're a women then you're a slave, but I feel the Legion has cases so they can grow.

Sure. But the two other factions you're offered in New Vegas are not way worse. They're way better which is why almost no backs the Legion. There is no reason to believe that the flaws of the Legion compared to the other factions in New Vegas are simply a matter of perspective.

That is bagging.

I think Obsidian just wanted to make an NCR game and after a couple years of developing, they threw the Legion in in a few months. Probally not the case, but it seems that way, how many quests, and how much info you can get from the Legion.

Despite how the game naturally points you to work for Mr.House, I wouldn't be surprised if the NCR's ending became canon with all the NCR bias. I guess that's why the NCR is a step ahead of Legion, since we really don't know anything about them.

I don't assume they're inferior. All I do is explain why I think they're inferior compared to the other factions we can support based on what we actually know about them and the Fallout universe. In response I get people saying stuff like "The Legion does the dirty, mean, and tough things that need to be done for the future," and refusing to explain their reasoning as to why these things need to be done. Who's assuming here?

Can you please point to a single example of my opinion being biased in favor of the NCR?



They aren't the norm in the NCR or say the Mojave under House which is the point I'm trying to get across. Are there people you could put the Legion up against that would make them seem good? Sure probably. I'm sure if you put the Legion up against say an Ungern von Sternberg or someone I might back them. But when you put them up against factions like the NCR or House they end up being ridiculously inferior.

No that's my position. You're more than welcome to disagree with it but it's not bagging on you to hold it.

That's you position, but you stated it as though it was fact.

Since we're on topic about Legion, does anybody know the base id for recruit legionaries? tried googling/wiki ing it but nothing.

Do I really have to put IMO after everything I post to make it clear I'm expressing my opinion?

I'll go look in the GECK for you.

I looked it up and added it to the wiki, it's 00139385.

Reason I support Legion is because I see NCR falling apart, and when it does it will once again be chaos, new organizations will be born out of NCR's ashes and those might bring war to each other again and we're right back to Fallout 2 where everyone is aiming for independence.
Since I don't believe that NCR will be able to survive for much longer a new solution must be found to unite the wasteland so it doesn't stagnate again, and Legion is that solution for me.
Sure enough they go backwards with a couple of things like free will, medicine and history but I believe those to be necessary sacrifices if the wasteland is to be united under one flag, no matter how brutal that flag is.

If there were another solution I would support them instead of Legion, but I see none.

I realize that the Legion ain't exactly on the "good" side of karma with slavery and sixism. But since slavery has been around for far longer than no slavery I see no fault in that. Slavery will once again be banished in the future and women will once again be given their rights back.
It will simply take time, a necessary sacrifice IMO.

My reason for supporting them is simple, it's not that I think that NCR is just as bad as them, it's not that I condone the things they do, it's because the wasteland needs stability in order to be restored.
NCR has failed in that aspect.
House only cares about his Vegas.
Independent.... Hah!
No for me it's Legion, stability at all costs no matter the price.
And no I don't believe that the Legion will fall apart without Caesar, if Caesar wins he will create a new society and change the Legion and surely have something to replace him with when he's gone, and if Legion fails then Lanius can take the crown and bring stability to the east while the west falls apart on their own.
If both die I still don't believe Legion will fall apart, they will surely have some inner disputes but once a new Caesar is crowned and enough legionnaires punished they will once again look up at their god and follow every command.

As to why they need the west, I have no idea, Caesar wants his Rome but I honestly think he could have set it up somewhere else and waited for NCR to die out on their own.
I guess it's because it would be a triumph and show the strength of the Legion, of how they are a far stronger nation than NCR is (military wise).