Legion Civilion Life?

Post » Fri May 04, 2012 4:27 pm

Time travels not possible, nor will they, Bethesda, do it.

Caesar has stated that he has "We have cities of our own, but nothing compared to Vegas..." to me this would mean they have civilized people doing "average Joe" stuff like farming, building and shopkeeping. Crime is nonexistent in their lands because of how well they enforce law there, so maybe there is a tough presence of military guards stationed every few blocks - possible Frumentarii amoung the people reporting any suspicious behaviour to said guards.
I'd say the men who are born into the Legion but aren't fit enough to be soldiers and not too unfit to be killed are given work on building the homelands along with the women.
The people we see in the Fort, I take to be recently enslaved women who are part of NCR or unknown tribes, those born into the Legion are given their place back home but can never serve in the Army.
The Legion have their own currency, coins, so they should have some structure in earning and spending those coins: Earning would be through work on the farms, construction and scavenging useful materials/weapons, and obviously spending it on food/drink and other misc things needed to live, also trading with any caravans who deal with Legion.

It's all assumption until a Dev or someone says otherwise.

Perhaps this is a bit off-topic, but what always baffled me about the Legion's design as a faction is the oft-stated remark that "the Legion's lands are completely safe", as if being a police state automatically equals no crime. In fact, often times it results in the exact opposite from occuring. The Soviet Union was one of the most highly policed countries in the world in its time, and smuggling and crime still flourished, with local Party officials often taking a cut in the profits. This is also true in China, where corruption amongst low-level Party officials runs rampant, as they often use their position to secure favors for businesses run by family members, and even evict people from their land. In real life, putting a soldier on every inch of territory does not result in security, but apparently in the Fallout world, it does. If this logic held, East Germany, which had one Stasi agent, informer, or part-time informer out of every six of their citizens, would still be around, and be the most crime-free place on earth.
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Melis Hristina
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 1:29 pm

Perhaps this is a bit off-topic, but what always baffled me about the Legion's design as a faction is the oft-stated remark that "the Legion's lands are completely safe", as if being a police state automatically equals no crime. In fact, often times it results in the exact opposite from occuring. The Soviet Union was one of the most highly policed countries in the world in its time, and smuggling and crime still flourished, with local Party officials often taking a cut in the profits. This is also true in China, where corruption amongst low-level Party officials runs rampant, as they often use their position to secure favors for businesses run by family members, and even evict people from their land. In real life, putting a soldier on every inch of territory does not result in security, but apparently in the Fallout world, it does. If this logic held, East Germany, which had one Stasi agent, informer, or part-time informer out of every six of their citizens, would still be around, and be the most crime-free place on earth.
Well considering it comes from the horses mouth (Caesar), Dale Barton(Trades with Legion), Cass(NCR Citizen) and a few more NPCs that Legion lands are safe, I'd assume they are safe :yes:
Cass tells you how angry she is that Legion roads are safe as houses and NCRs are like [censored].
Cass does however concede that Legion-marked caravans and their supply lines are, unlike the NCR's, well guarded and "safe as houses."
Dale Barton actually prefers to trade with Legion opposed to NCR for various reasons...
Barton prefers to trade in Legion territories versus NCR territories, saying that he finds it cheaper and safer. This is due to Caesar not demanding (or needing) heavy taxes from traders in his territory and the Legions effectiveness in keeping the trade routes secure from both raiders and creatures roaming the wastes.
All of the real world examples were not as brain-washed or loyal as Caesars Legion and thus they continued to break rules, nor was the punishment for their crimes as severe as the Legions. Comparing our world, as in a pre-apocalypse, functioning and moderately civilised place, to Fallouts, which is a post-apocalyptic wasteland trying to rebuild, isn't really a good basis as the two aren't comparable.
Note that it isn't exactly crime free, but rather it's safe. All the tribes in their lands have been killed or assimilated, that includes facists like the Brotherhood of Steel, so there can't be much interfering with the peace by 'foreign' or rebel factions.
Anyone in the Legion smart enough or strong enough to commit a crime would have already been drafted into their army, not to mention they're all brainwashed and believe Caesar is a God, the son of Mars, so they're not really in the best place to be committing said crimes when the punishment is 1) Crucifiction 2) Beheaded 3) Set on fire 4) Crucifiction. And there is no buying your freedom from your crimes. All crimes = death, I don't think anyone in their right mind would step out of place.
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^~LIL B0NE5~^
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 2:25 pm

Well considering it comes from the horses mouth (Caesar), Dale Barton(Trades with Legion), Cass(NCR Citizen) and a few more NPCs that Legion lands are safe, I'd assume they are safe :yes:
Cass tells you how angry she is that Legion roads are safe as houses and NCRs are like [censored].
Dale Barton actually prefers to trade with Legion opposed to NCR for various reasons...


And I'm not disputing what they said, although to be fair, the NCR's security really dosen't extend in to the Mojave, and are clearly safe and "boring" enough for people like Henry Jamison to come to Vegas looking for adventure, but my original point was how brute force alone dosen't stop crime, and it seems like the devs oversimplified this whole thing into "Police State/Marital Law=Security", when it clearly dosen't. I really don't know where I'm taking this, lol, but it was just an observation.
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Sarah Knight
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 10:17 am

And I'm not disputing what they said, although to be fair, the NCR's security really dosen't extend in to the Mojave, and are clearly safe and "boring" enough for people like Henry Jamison to come to Vegas looking for adventure, but my original point was how brute force alone dosen't stop crime, and it seems like the devs oversimplified this whole thing into "Police State/Marital Law=Security", when it clearly dosen't. I really don't know where I'm taking this, lol, but it was just an observation.
The thing is that the Legion go well beyond martial law. They've made it clear that any illegal activity they find is going to be shut down hard. If any sort of organized crime rears its head in Legion territory then heads will literally roll.
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dav
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 6:27 am

And I'm not disputing what they said, although to be fair, the NCR's security really dosen't extend in to the Mojave, and are clearly safe and "boring" enough for people like Henry Jamison to come to Vegas looking for adventure, but my original point was how brute force alone dosen't stop crime, and it seems like the devs oversimplified this whole thing into "Police State/Marital Law=Security", when it clearly dosen't. I really don't know where I'm taking this, lol, but it was just an observation.
Every criminal activity in their lands has been squashed though, raider/fiends etc are all dead so there is no organised crime going on like in NCR. Legion don't allow drugs or alcohol, anyone caught with either or promoting the use of either is punished by death on a cross, this rules out intoxicated/high behaviour, both substances are rampant in the NCR.
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kennedy
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 1:29 am

Maybe the organized crime is just so good no one knows about it. *gasp*
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Emma
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 10:56 am

Maybe the organized crime is just so good no one knows about it. *gasp*
Organized ninjas?!

:ph34r:
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Reven Lord
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 11:53 am

Maybe the organized crime is just so good no one knows about it. *gasp*
You mean like, that well formed that they are the Goverment so it's all legal :o
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Toby Green
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 3:54 am

You mean like, that well formed that they are the Goverment so it's all legal :o
Caesar is the puppet ruler of the ninja Mafia.
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Miguel
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 9:30 am

Caesar is the puppet ruler of the ninja Mafia.
Ninja Mafia, pfft, more like the Dark brotherhood :ninja:
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loste juliana
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 9:58 am

Perhaps this is a bit off-topic, but what always baffled me about the Legion's design as a faction is the oft-stated remark that "the Legion's lands are completely safe", as if being a police state automatically equals no crime. In fact, often times it results in the exact opposite from occuring. The Soviet Union was one of the most highly policed countries in the world in its time, and smuggling and crime still flourished, with local Party officials often taking a cut in the profits. This is also true in China, where corruption amongst low-level Party officials runs rampant, as they often use their position to secure favors for businesses run by family members, and even evict people from their land. In real life, putting a soldier on every inch of territory does not result in security, but apparently in the Fallout world, it does. If this logic held, East Germany, which had one Stasi agent, informer, or part-time informer out of every six of their citizens, would still be around, and be the most crime-free place on earth.
How well the law is enforced is not the only factor when talking about crime. Culture plays a big part too. Prohibition of alcohol didn't work in the US and wouldn't work in many western countries because alcohol is an important part (to a lesser or greater extent) of the respective cultures. Prohibiting alcohol in a non-westernized Islamic theocracy and enforcing it wouldn't be much of a challenge though (most likely) since the personal morals of the people in said nation would probably lead them to stay away from alcohol even if it was handed out for free. So it's quite possible that the consumption of alcohol and usage of drugs could be close to non-existant even without any laws against it in the lands of the Legion, because of how taboo it is and how zealous most Legion-followers are. Now combine such zeal with swift and harsh punishment and you've got yourself a society with very little crime.

You don't really bring Citizens with you to war, unless they're slaves of course.
Not necessarily true. As far as I know Roman armies had camp followers with them during campaigns, and so did the German Landsknechts, Mongols and probably many others.
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Roy Harris
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 8:11 am

Besides women being [censored] and demeaned, almost everyone being slaves, rather delightful
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Tom
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 8:46 am

Besides women being [censored] and demeaned, almost everyone being slaves, rather delightful
You are cold i′ll give you that.
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Leilene Nessel
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 4:56 am

Besides women being [censored] and demeaned, almost everyone being slaves, rather delightful
Yeah I know, like who cares about the women while the men are out fighting wars, nothing like equality throughout. If the guys suffer so must the women!
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Susan Elizabeth
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 9:56 am

Yeah I know, like who cares about the women while the men are out fighting wars, nothing like equality throughout. If the guys suffer so must the women!
So you are saying, that just becouse the men are allowed to fight, and the women are not, then just enslave them, use them as breeding stock and [censored] their asses? Damn i never thought of that, thats actually smart (sarcasm)
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JLG
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 1:34 pm

So you are saying, that just becouse the men are allowed to fight, and the women are not, then just enslave them, use them as breeding stock and [censored] their asses? Damn i never thought of that, thats actually smart (sarcasm)
We do not know how the Legion treat their civilians, male or female.
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dell
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 7:38 am

So you are saying, that just becouse the men are allowed to fight, and the women are not, then just enslave them, use them as breeding stock and [censored] their asses? Damn i never thought of that, thats actually smart (sarcasm)
Fixed. It's actually the greatest idea ever. How come we not have applied it in the real world already?
Spoiler
I think he was being sarcastic btw, probably the same with the guy he quoted. I might be wrong, but I'm under the impression that the kind of people who would sincerely say such a thing usually don't come to these boards. Not everyone clarifies that it's sarcasm like you did, so a tip would be not to assume that they are completely serious if they don't add (sarcasm) at the end. Atleast not when they supply outrageous statements like that.
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luis dejesus
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 1:52 am

Fixed. It's actually the greatest idea ever. How come we not have applied it in the real world already?
Spoiler
I think he was being sarcastic btw, probably the same with the guy he quoted. I might be wrong, but I'm under the impression that the kind of people who would sincerely say such a thing usually don't come to these boards. Not everyone clarifies that it's sarcasm like you did, so a tip would be not to assume that they are completely serious if they don't add (sarcasm) at the end. Atleast not when they supply outrageous statements like that.
Fixed. It's actually the greatest idea ever. How come we not have applied it in the real world already?
Spoiler
I think he was being sarcastic btw, probably the same with the guy he quoted. I might be wrong, but I'm under the impression that the kind of people who would sincerely say such a thing usually don't come to these boards. Not everyone clarifies that it's sarcasm like you did, so a tip would be not to assume that they are completely serious if they don't add (sarcasm) at the end. Atleast not when they supply outrageous statements like that.
Yeah.... Well he didnt make it obvious, BUT I DID :D
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Katy Hogben
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 2:12 pm

How well the law is enforced is not the only factor when talking about crime. Culture plays a big part too. Prohibition of alcohol didn't work in the US and wouldn't work in many western countries because alcohol is an important part (to a lesser or greater extent) of the respective cultures. Prohibiting alcohol in a non-westernized Islamic theocracy and enforcing it wouldn't be much of a challenge though (most likely) since the personal morals of the people in said nation would probably lead them to stay away from alcohol even if it was handed out for free. So it's quite possible that the consumption of alcohol and usage of drugs could be close to non-existant even without any laws against it in the lands of the Legion, because of how taboo it is and how zealous most Legion-followers are. Now combine such zeal with swift and harsh punishment and you've got yourself a society with very little crime.

That's a good pont, I didn't see it like that. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but the Legion is such a difficult faction to anolyze on even the most basic level because they are such a bizzare organization. Seriously, why couldn't they just say "oh, we don't rely on guns because 1) we don't have enough munitions to supply our MASSIVE (by preindustrial standards) army because we have no means to produce it (you can't scavenge enough ammo for an entire army) 2) since we have no industrial base, all the weapons we do have are either scavenged or taken from our dead enemies, and none of them are in particularly good condition and 3) most of our recruits are ignorant tribals, we can't expect them all to pick up the finer points of being a modern army, and that's why we don't rely on guns. Instead they make up some shallow excuse along the lines of "guns can jam, and therefore bad herp derp."
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Svenja Hedrich
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 6:38 am

That's a good pont, I didn't see it like that. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but the Legion is such a difficult faction to anolyze on even the most basic level because they are such a bizzare organization. Seriously, why couldn't they just say "oh, we don't rely on guns because 1) we don't have enough munitions to supply our MASSIVE (by preindustrial standards) army because we have no means to produce it (you can't scavenge enough ammo for an entire army) 2) since we have no industrial base, all the weapons we do have are either scavenged or taken from our dead enemies, and none of them are in particularly good condition and 3) most of our recruits are ignorant tribals, we can't expect them all to pick up the finer points of being a modern army, and that's why we don't rely on guns. Instead they make up some shallow excuse along the lines of "guns can jam, and therefore bad herp derp."
Yeah thats cause they believe thats the reason themselves. You think they would say they were ignorant tribals? LOL.
Course they think the reason is that the guns are unreliable (pfuh which they aint) because thats what Caesar says. I agree though, its impossible to know everything about the Legion, but if you ask me, then the Legion was made for players that want to fight as much as possible, and story wasnt the best thing to focus on, beside the fact that they were slaver savages killing and murdering and so on, and enemies with everyone, beside some of the groups that hate the NCR even more then them. Also they dont have any companions really dedicated to them, so its kinda you fighting everyone most of the time. NCR players atleast get support and followers, and with 2 dedicated NCR companions.
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Suzie Dalziel
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 3:51 am

Yeah thats cause they believe thats the reason themselves. You think they would say they were ignorant tribals? LOL.
Course they think the reason is that the guns are unreliable (pfuh which they aint) because thats what Caesar says. I agree though, its impossible to know everything about the Legion, but if you ask me, then the Legion was made for players that want to fight as much as possible, and story wasnt the best thing to focus on, beside the fact that they were slaver savages killing and murdering and so on, and enemies with everyone, beside some of the groups that hate the NCR even more then them. Also they dont have any companions really dedicated to them, so its kinda you fighting everyone most of the time. NCR players atleast get support and followers, and with 2 dedicated NCR companions.

Well, they wouldn't have to put it like that, but it seems reasonable that they would acknowledge their shortcomings. I'm sure not everyone believes the government line word for word. The Legion is a rather primtive society compared to the more advanced West Coast factions (i.e. NCR, BoS, Enclave, Shi, House) and the tribes they've conquered are even more primative, so it's a little unreasonable to expect them to understand how to march in a coherent fashion, maintian modern weapons, or perform a plethora of other skills required of a modern professional soldier, and if they simply acknowledged their limitations instead of insisting that the "old ways are better" they would have appeared cunning and adaptive, like "asymmetric warfare" and all that good stuff. Instead of being like a bush-whacking Apache resistance, they were portrayed like the Mahdis at Omdurman, a tribal army going toe-to-toe with a modern military in a conventional battle, which makes the Legion's ending difficult to believe.
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Kayleigh Mcneil
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 4:53 pm

Well, they wouldn't have to put it like that, but it seems reasonable that they would acknowledge their shortcomings. I'm sure not everyone believes the government line word for word. The Legion is a rather primtive society compared to the more advanced West Coast factions (i.e. NCR, BoS, Enclave, Shi, House) and the tribes they've conquered are even more primative, so it's a little unreasonable to expect them to understand how to march in a coherent fashion, maintian modern weapons, or perform a plethora of other skills required of a modern professional soldier, and if they simply acknowledged their limitations instead of insisting that the "old ways are better" they would have appeared cunning and adaptive, like "asymmetric warfare" and all that good stuff. Instead of being like a bush-whacking Apache resistance, they were portrayed like the Mahdis at Omdurman, a tribal army going toe-to-toe with a modern military in a conventional battle, which makes the Legion's ending difficult to believe.
Yeah, well in fallout you dont die when getting one shot in your face, that gives the Legion an advantage :fallout:
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*Chloe*
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 10:05 am

Yeah.... Well he didnt make it obvious, BUT I DID :biggrin:
Making it obvious with (sarcasm) just takeS away from everything, best to let the brains realise naturally when someone is being sarcastic :)
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Alexander Lee
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 3:13 pm

Making it obvious with (sarcasm) just takeS away from everything, best to let the brains realise naturally when someone is being sarcastic :smile:
It can create misunderstandings, my brain is in at the Big Empty so i find it rather hard to use it.
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joannARRGH
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 2:22 pm

So you are saying, that just becouse the men are allowed to fight, and the women are not, then just enslave them, use them as breeding stock and [censored] their asses? Damn i never thought of that, thats actually smart (sarcasm)
Weak men are slaves too, there's no gender gap there. I can recall seeing Powder Gangers bound and ready to be taken to become slaves and there is a teenage boy in that "Left my Heart" quest. There is obviously an issue with birth and death rates in the Legion, desperate times call for desperate measures. Only women can give birth, otherwise I'm sure they could also be useful as bullet stoppers.

The areas of Legion territory seem pretty lawless, but we'll never truly know! The only real way to stamp out lawlessness is with extreme structure.
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Matt Bee
 
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