So I'm new to these forums and I've seen people saying siding with the Stormcloaks is better, or siding with the Legion is better. And it got me thinking. Technically the whole Civil war is a "for the greater good" type situation. Yes, the worship of Talos is outlawed which is the basis for the war but its a small price to pay for a reprieve of hostilities from the Thalmor. If the Stormcloaks overthrew the Empire in Skyrim then the Empire as a whole is done for. The Thalmor attack again and finally wipe it out. Now you have a large Thalmor army against a single Province [Yes other provinces are in the mix but so far it seems Skyrim/Cyrodiil are the main defense] Skyrim would most likely be wiped out by the Thalmor and Tamriel would plunge into darkness.

The way I see it, the Stormcloaks/Ulfric being wiped out is the best choice. Save your strength, gather your forces and attack the THalmor. Then you can bring back Talos worship. A temporary wound [The outlawing of Talos worship] is a small price to pay to prevent a total Thalmor takeover imo.

Also, personally I hate how Bethesda did the Stormcloaks. A group of rebels refusing to submit to Thalmor rule and upholding the worship of Talos? Yea I would agree with that. I wouldn't support them but I would promote an alliance agaisnt a common enemy [The Thalmor]. But the way they are in game is just a bunch of racist bastards who not only wanna overthrow the Empire but all non-Nord races in Skyrim, isn't that what the Thalmor is doing?

The Thalmor are trying to deconstruct the world, and the banning of Talos ties directly into that. That in of itself is a major victory for the Thalmor right there. Also, saying that the Thalmor would steam roll over the Empire is making them out to be a bigger powerhouse than they really are. I personally think the Thalmor are puffing out their chest and standing on the tip of their toes to make themselves more menacing than they really are. And no, not every Stormcloak is a bigot out to destroy every non Nord in the world. Some Nords are not all comfy cozy with (Particularly Mer) with the other races, but their not out to wipe them all out. Hell, I feel the Dunmer in Morrowind treated my worse than what I am seeing from the Nords as of right now. Unfortunately for the Empire...

The Stormcloaks are fighting for a just, yet shortsighted cause. They have good intentions, but they seem to be fueled by nothing more than nationalist/racist fervor. Without Hammerfell, the only way the Empire could stand against the Dominion is with Skyrim. The Great War would have been lost had it not been for Gereral Jonna's reinforcements from Skyrim. And attempting to fight the Dominion on its own would seal Skyrim's doom (this is either hinted at or explicitly stated, I can't exactly remember what the statement was, but a Stormcloak officer said that after getting rid of the Empire, they would "take the fight to the Thalmor"). Skyrim would be crushed without the legion to assist it. In the end, the only logical option is to side with the Empire. It is the only way to survive another war.

As for your last statement, yes, it is very hard to side with the Stormcloaks when they are so explicitly racist. However, if you put yourself in the shoes of a Nord in Skyrim, it seems like a much more valid option. Whether or not the decision to add racism to such a degree was a good idea or not is not a discussion for the Lore forum.

No, NCR, you fool!

Oops, wrong universe. Thousand pardons.

Anyway, preservation of the Talos Cult is essential. Empires have fallen before, but a Shezarrine always surfaces to reinforce the wheel. That's what the Thalmor fear most. That's why they had the god banned and persecuted his priests. They can topple an Empire, sure, but unless they can erase Stormcrown then another one will just come along to replace it.

@Foire:
It's actually interesting there if he is fortelling the collapse of the Mede empire, rather than lamenting the fall of the Septim empire. Makes sense in context since he's discussing the events of Skyrim.

Not all the Stormcloaks are racists. And those that are better keep it to themselves when my character is around, Ulfric included. I got them to where they are now, and have no problem coming back and calling in Odahviing right into his [NUMINIT] throne room if that's what it'll take (metaphorically speaking, until some enterprising mod-maker out there appeases me).


The Mede Empire is to the Septim Empire as the Potentate was to the Reman Empire. It's time for a clean slate, a fresh start, and a New Empire... and, once again, the Stormcrown rises in the North. By ousting the Pretender Empire, now , I may doom them. But nobody invades Skyrim successfully, and the other humans will all hear the call of their birthplace, and hopefully take up arms in the name of a new Empire, with a new Emperor (who better not be Ulfric/better be me, or I'll time-paradox myself into not buying this game*). At the very least, Skyrim will carve out its own little bubble of anti-Thalmor safety. At best, we'll see a repeat of Talos's Mantle.

Talos Himself was a Nord (or a very Nordic Breton + a Nord + an Imperial Battlemage), so this is not without historical precedent, no matter which way the Empire crumbles.





*Not really. I'm sure they'll pull some really neat trick one way or another.

This is the heart of why I oppose the Thalmor.
Love, sweet love baby.

Bah, I'll take Yes Man any day of the week.

Indeed he is.

Trust them not, Orion117.

Why do you guys underestimate the Mede Empire?
Titus Mede and his son, Titus Mede II were both very competent rulers. All of the Empire is in relative peace as of 4E 201, if you leave out the Stormcloak rebellion. Sure, there's the Argonians and the disaster up in Morrowind, but High Rock and Cyrodiil are both relatively calm at the time of the game. Titus Mede I came in and swept the plate clean after the corrupt political scandals in the Imperial City, after the assassination of Potentate Ocato and therefore finalizing the Septim Empire. His son Titus Mede II, was also competent in that he refused to sway to the Thalmor's demands and saw the inherent evil in their intent. He also kept the Empire together after the sacking of the Imperial City, which is an accomplishment on its own. He personally led the army that basically took back the Imperial City and crushed the Thalmor army, which led way to the peace treaty that saved the Empire (and with it, the rest of Tamriel, Skyrim and mankind itself), even if it meant sacrificing the public worship of the most important God to the Empire.
He clearly saw his Legion and the Empire were not in any shape or form to lead the war to the Dominion, even if Hammerfell was still fighting the Dominion WITHIN its own borders.

I see Stormcloaks as a bunch of little kids throwing a tantrum after their parents took away their favorite video game (which the parents enjoyed just as much as they did), after the parents came into a financial struggle and had to sacrifice some stuff to survive. They're a bunch of ungrateful, immature, spoiled brats that deserve to be punished.

Nitpick: Titus Mede's son was Attrebus Mede. Titus II was born around 180 years after Attrebus.

The Medes don't name their children in numerical order like the British royal family, it's more like the Popes. Pope Benedict XVI's father wasn't Pope Benedict XV, for example. The Septims were the same way. Uriel VII's father wasn't Uriel VI, it was Pelagius IV.

Woops. I completely forgot about that. I don't know where my mind was.

Well, my point still stands.

Are you talking about what I said, Kabcr? Because I'm not trying to underestimate anyone. What I'm trying to say is, well, what Chimere Graeyln is trying to point out that there is a bigger, metaphysical conflict going on here. The dragons, the civil war...there's more to it all than is readily apparent to our mortal eyes. These events aren't the problem. They're the symptoms.

Of course not.

If I was talking directly to you, I would have quoted you. My post was directed at everyone who was edgy enough to side with Ulfric purely for the motivations of the Civil War.


Like Paarthurnax said, the end might be inevitable and we might not have any control over it, and in the grand scale of things, I'm completely fine with that.
But what I'm stating is, why not influence what we can control? Are we just going to lay down and wait for the whole shebang to come in a sweep us off our feet? Of course not; people continue to live as if the world will continue forever, and there's nothing wrong with that.

I completely agree with you Kabcr, while the empire is not without its flaws it still seems like by far the better choice. The Stormcloaks seem incredibly immature and short sighted. The Thalmor wont be toppled by a bunch of drunk Nords who think that they can simply punch them to death (metaphorically speaking). It will take a united Empire with strong leaders (like Titus Mede II and others) to stand against the Aldmari Dominion. Based on everything I have read I can safely say that while the Mede family are no Septims they are still very capable and have proven themselves on multiple occasions, so they have my support.

True, but that doesn't mean you must be united under the banner of one empire from some far away kingdom. People generally do not like the idea of being ruled by outsiders, and I believe the fracture of this civil war already damned the empire in the view of Skyrims people (To some extent). Throw in a political divide inside of Cyrodiil itself, and I don't exactly see it much better off than Skyrim splitting or united either way. A empire is only as united as its ruling powers. I actually see Skyrim fairing better as its own entity against the Thalmor than the Thalmor running rampant across Cyrodiil, just in part of its location.

Also, I disagree with the 'Stormcloaks being babies' for having Talos being taken away. Their probably not aware of it, but that is a huge deal in the structure and fate of Man. When a culture thinks its way of life is beings uprooted, its a very large motivator to take action. The Nords may have been fine and dandy with the treaty, but the inclusion of Talos being banned was probably the straw that broke the camels back.

To me the assassination of the Emperor would also spell doom for the Empire. Look at Oblivion Uriel is dead, as is Martin and Civil War broke out, Each city claiming the throne. If Titus Mede II being killed is Canon [And if he has no "Ready for the throne" heir waiting in the wings] I have no doubt Civil war would break out. No doubt certain factions would side with the Thalmor for "A chance at the throne". Another war would break out and the Empire would fall.

See what svcks about quests like Killing the Emperor is you will never know the consequences of your action till the next game. Even weeks after killing him the whole of Skyrim will be in a perpetual "It just happened yesterday" state.

Then again, 'romance' in this context might mean more than just 'love'.

The problem I see with your complaint is that Skyrim had already been part of the Empire for nearly a millennium(?). In all reality, the presence of the Imperial Legion was all the provinces needed to know they needed the Empire. The local Legions secured hostile locations and maintain the peace in each of the provinces, as well as providing relative security from just about every criminal enterprise in the Empire. You can look at what happened in Markarth after the Imperial Legion in Skyrim was pulled off the region to fight off the Thalmor off the Imperial City.

There's propaganda on both sides of the war, some more extremist than others.
Despite Stormcloak propaganda and personal opinions, there are several times where it is included in Imperial dialogue that they are not comfortable with the treaty made with the Thalmor, but that it was necessary. There's a widespread agreement that the treaty was not fair, and that citizens of the Empire should worship Talos openly. Nobody is willing to speak up, because the Empire is not ready to fight another war. Ulfric, our Thalmor agent buddy, on the other hand, decided to defy this decision that cost thousands of lives of Tamrielic races and try to destabilize Imperial rule by targeting a completely opposite problem (the Empire) than what is made apparent (the Thalmor), just so they can worship Talos. He also assumes he can take on the Thalmor all by himself while being equally scared of them (maybe even open up an alliance with Hammerfell, but this is also debatable).
He's totally not in it for the power, though and the murder of High King Torygg had no ulterior intent, even though Torygg was open to dialogue about the fate of Skyrim.

Uflric is, quite frankly, absolutely not fit to lead Skyrim as a unified Kingdom; making the Stormcloaks' goals a complete farce made by a passionate, misguided politician.

If the Stormcloaks win the war, they would have to start all over. You have to understand most of these men were in it to overthrow the Empire's control in Skyrim and defend against the Thalmor, and nothing more. They are a militia with improvised weaponry and armor, and they are not very fit for conventional combat. The Stormcloak army was struggling to combat a single completely local Legion, while the Aldmeri Dominion swept the rug off four entire Legions, wiping off two of them completely. The Thalmor are more than capable of completely obliterating Skyrim, assuming they have been building up for the next Great War. If you want ingame proof, use console commands to pair off a couple Imperial soldiers against twice the number of Stormcloak soldiers or, if you're feeling adventurous, Justicars against Stormcloaks. You will see how unfit the Stormcloaks really are.


Each Mede is chosen specifically, I think, by the elder council in the Imperial City.
I have no doubts in my mind the next ruler will also be competent.

Hammerfell gets screwed over hard by the Concordat. That thing isn't just "No Talos." Several major cities lost the Altmer with that treaty. The Empire was willing to allow the Dominion to have southern Hammerfell, which shows one thing: the vast majority of the Cyrodiils in the Cyrodiil Empire cares more about Cyrodiil then Hammerfell or Skyrim. It's an Empire. If they must sacrifice a province for Cyrodiil, they'd do it.

Hammefell would have a much harder time fighting off the Dominion had they been allowed to fortify the southern coast.

I haven't seen competance in the Medes. Ol Titus I is the reason there's such a big mess in the first place. Over a hundred years since umbriel, not a single conflict in between, and the military was still weak and unprepared come 4e168. He never attempted to regain the empire's lost provinces or do anything about empire citizens being attacked. He ignored the growing threat to the west and it got him exactly what you'd expect.

The only decent thing I saw out of Mede II was the battle of Red Ring. But afterwards he has Lord Naafingir as a great bargaining chip...and does nothing with it. Instead he signs the concordat as is without attempting any sort of negotiation.(You can bet the loss of their big strategist and almost their entire attack force was a big hit to them)

By Skyrim's time, the Thalmor are hoping the Talos ban will start the world's end before the imperials can regain their strength. Altmer don't replenish their forces very well. Men breed quickly, elves do not. They instigated the rebellion as a backup plan, and even then I think it's an attempt to raise a defense before the inevitable strike back.

Hammerfell was not affected by the White-Gold Concordant. They had a treaty of their own.

What happened was that after the Imperial City was sacked, Emperor Titus II recalled all the Legions to Cyrodiil to fight off the Thalmor off the capital.


This meant that Hammerfell was able to keep the Thalmor from completely overrunning the province, only because they had the help of veteran Legionnaires.

This army were willing to keep on fighting the Thalmor, because they were at odds with them.
The Emperor was forced into the position of either willing to continue this fight along Hammerfell, or renouncing the province so he was not liable for the province's fate and be able to secure peace and save the Empire.

http://imperial-library.info/content/skyrim-concises-account-great-war-between-empire-and-aldmeri-dominion

Because they fought back.

On the 30th of Frostfall, 4E 171 the Aldmeri Dominion sent an ambassador to the Imperial City with a gift in a covered cart and an ultimatum for the new Emperor. The long list of demands included staggering tributes, disbandment of the Blades, outlawing the worship of Talos, and ceding large sections of Hammerfell to the Dominion

Fine. Not southern Hammerfell. Just "large sections."

In this case, they were only with this empire coming into the Third era and currently the 4th. It doesn't help that They were basically shoehorned into the whole thing by the brilliance of Tiber Septim.


Hardly. The more prolific and, what may be considered to be socially harmful, guilds are still operating (to my knowledge) throughout the provinces. The legion is important to secure roadways and try to make travel generally safer, but I think 4E Tamriel, the legion is barely holding onto any threads to maintain order.


True, but the city was reclaimed quite quickly after Ulfrics intervention.


No argument on this front.

The problem here is that they are soldiers, and their duty is to preserve the empire, regardless of their personal feelings. Some may not like the treaty just for the simple fact that they were bested, and not on the idea that Talos worship is being banned. The fact is, that Cyrodiil is more secular than it is sacred. Give it a good amount of time, and they probably will have not qualms with Talos being taken out of the divines, as long as there are those that continue to hit the subject over the head. Hell, Hammerfell seceded just based on the fact that the Thalmor was weak and they believed they could be taken out. True, the empire was reeling from the attempt to retake Whitegold, but if they really wanted to, its possible they could of pulled legions from the other provinces in a attempt to seal the deal.


Ulfric is not a agent of the Thalmor, but people like to think that him as a asset to the Thalmor puts him in that line. His cooperation extended to the fact that the Thalmor tortured the man to gain info to take Whitegold. By the time he broke, the Thalmor already had it in their possession. I see no part in how he is scared of the Thalmor. By the time the Stormcloak questline is completed, they are committing all their resources into the forming of a professional army, rebuilding the rest of Skyrim in preperation of the Great War v.2. As for the murder of the High King, it was less of a murder (Although Ulfric probably knew he could kick his ass) and more of a old tradition of booting the guy you think is to incompetent to rule effectively. The High King under the Empire is more or less a title that has little bearing in the grand scheme of things, and his death sent a clear message to the empire what direction he wanted to take Skyrim.


I will not attempt to judge the man from that standpoint since we really have no clear cut of what his true intentions are. Ulfric just didn't fall off the bus and go military commando though, the man knows what hes doing, and to dangerous effect, especially at the end of the Stormcloak quest line.

That is incorrect. Even before the end of the questline, the big thing Ulfric and his lieutenant stressed was kick the empire out, and rebuilding Skyrim in preparation of the Great War. Skyrim is wealthy enough to make it all happen on its own, while the Empire depends a good deal on her silver mines.


Going off of the history of the empire (And most great powers in Tamriel), it wouldn't be the first time a vastly outmatched army snatched victory from the [censored] of defeat, only to come and kick the opposing sides ass hard. Hell, Tiber Septim should be a testament to this.


I have actually done this before, three Imperial troops against three Stormcloak troops, and in my case the Stormcloaks won out, all three imperials dead, and not a single Stormcloak slain. I can't say I have tried a Justicar though. Problem is that powerful mages in game will kick the crud of just about any warrior NPC, and I can't take it as proof of their superiority. Keep in mind that the Aldmeri dominion makes heavy use of Bosmer, Goblins, and potentially Kajit in their armies.