Legion or NCR? Debate : Fallout: New Vegas

» Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:01 pm

Remember that loading screen that says something like

(paraphrased) "The NCR can't be arsed to uphold law and order in the areas they conquer, so the punishment for most crimes is death." ?

Brings back some nice http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/5410/fallout1intro.jpg of pre-war USA.

» Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:08 pm

I still think that has to do with his childhood with the followers.
The fact his father was killed by raiders, raised by his mother.
Bright but not brilliant, surrounded by strong women with strong opinions, brains, goals and influence.
That conflicted with his own self image.

Then behold a bunch of savages capture him and Joshua after being cast out to nowhere.
Leading to an opportunity to sate his desires and punish all that he felt grieved him.
Then the followers tried to hold him back, at risk of his own life.
Giving another reason to turn on them as "they" had betrayed him.
Then to prove he was greater than the NCR, set up by the dictator Tandy, now corrupt and rotten to him.
Gave him another means to prove his superiority.

» Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:39 pm

Remember that loading screen that says something like

(paraphrased) "The NCR can't be arsed to uphold law and order in the areas they conquer, so the punishment for most crimes is death." ?

Brings back some nice http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/5410/fallout1intro.jpg of pre-war USA.

Well death is a fair punishment for crime, don't you think? You steal a pencil, you die.

» Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:52 pm

The region is mostly in NCR control and it is basically a warzone, no chance for Caesar to build. Gladly you are given the possibility to put the Legion in the position to build (although, unfortunately you won't be seeing it).

I am hoping future DLC will change that. I would like to see a Legion Town in Arizona. Better yet see one being built. Show legion artists, sculptures, scientists and other none-slaver members of the Legion Empire. I find it hard to believe Caesar would just enslave people that have artistic skills along with people that know how to rebuild a civilization. Might sound cheezy but there should be a quest were Caesar asks you to find people like that.

A Future Fallout game that has the legion should show that side of them.

» Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:28 am

Maybe you are right , but the way i see it :

- President Kimball has no opposition within the NCR , he is some sort of dictator , besides i didn't hear about elections or citizen voting
- NCR doesn't care about individual freedoms , displace people from their lands , prevent business to function properly as they over-tax the merchants who are left with barely nothing to survive , hence why some merchants prefer to trade in the Legion territory
- NCR emblem is the red star , NCR integrates people through the military almost exclusively , people who aren't part of them are expandables , when you are not NCR , you have no rights and can lose your property ( NCR doesn't repect private property unless it is NCR"s ) or business
- Instead of allying with pro-business Mr House , NCR wants to "nationalise" Vegas , to acquire it for its own needs to fund its expansion/war effort , NCR doesn' t care one bit about the people of Freeside

Stuffs like that makes me tend to think they are not far from an authoritarian regime similar to communist regimes ( corruption , regime that has his hand on all the wealth of the country , the people kept poor , free market and business discouraged etc ) , i've seen some propaganda signs at Mc Carran that says "NCR brings democracy" , but they are deceiving the people really , there is nothing democratic in the way they behave in the Mojave from what i've seen , but ok i may be wrong

1) Actually, Kimball is pretty unpopular, unlike Stalin (or other left wing socialist country leaders) who is "idolized" until death. And if you poke around carefully you will see things about NCR senators trying to improve their own image, that sounds like election to me.

2) Over-tax may give trouble to local retailers, but big corporation like Van Graff's, Gunrunners, Crimson Caravan, Gunderson's and Phubes' doesn't seem to be troubled.

3) Reds use red star for military because Yellow doesn't show well on green. And NCR doesn't conquer by force alone, they also "consume" towns with trade and diplomatic arrangement (usually keep raiders and slavers away).

4) Of course NCR doesn't care about people who aren't their's.

» Sun Jan 25, 2009 4:03 pm

Talk to Ranger Andy in Novac, where he describes how the Legion uses children as part of their war effort.

He describes how he finds a child hiding in a closet, then he notices a grenade at his feet that the child
planted there.

Legion svck in every way possible, they have absolutely no honor whatsoever.

» Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:36 pm

Occam, the NCR has just about as much honor. As I seem to recall a certian city being blown to kingdom come and the NCR using snipers to pick them off from afar. I don't call that 'honorable' either.

War is war, and as the old saying goes, 'all is fair in love and war.' I personally dont approve of the Legion, but the NCR arent much better.

» Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:46 am

Occam, the NCR has just about as much honor. As I seem to recall a certian city being blown to kingdom come and the NCR using snipers to pick them off from afar. I don't call that 'honorable' either.

War is war, and as the old saying goes, 'all is fair in love and war.' I personally dont approve of the Legion, but the NCR arent much better.

War is War, however I also don't recall seeing the NCR with their camps lined with Crucified People, or Heads on Spikes or stories of [censored] victims either.

The NCR are the lesser of Two Evils, however, using children in the war effort makes the Legion a bunch of scum

» Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:33 pm

War is War, however I also don't recall seeing the NCR with their camps lined with Crucified People, or Heads on Spikes or stories of [censored] victims either.

The NCR are the lesser of Two Evils, however, using children in the war effort makes the Legion a bunch of scum

I never said the Legion WASN'T a bunch of spear chucking Barbarians.

» Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:35 pm

I never said the Legion WASN'T a bunch of spear chucking Barbarians.

Agreed

I think this sums up what would likely happen if the Legion or NCR rolled into a settlement.

If I had a Family, Wife, Son and Daughter and the NCR rolled into town,
We'd probably be put to work growing crops, like the Sharecroppers up there by New Vegas.

If the Legion rolled into town, my Son would be conscripted, I would be crucified after being forced
to watch both my Daughter and Wife being gang-[censored], and if either of them survived that, they'd be made slaves.

So, I'll take NCR over legion any day...

» Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:49 am

I think if Lanius was Caesar then that may be true. But as long as Caesar is in power, they may more than likely fight anyone who resists. In an end slide where Caesar is still alive, Primm prospers, but there are Legion sentrys on patrol to watch the town. The problem is, we don't know in game how the Legions justic works, as there are no Legion controlled settlements.

» Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:37 pm

The sharecroppers were paid to go out there.
Handsomely too, it was that and a chance for more money / prospects, or stay at home and risk the lack of jobs in a growing population.
Only due to the war and constant bickering / skirmishers / troubles going on, and a spoiler event I can't post here.
Were they facing any trouble and holding some anti NCR millitary feelings.
If that land was safe most of the other comunities would not be high priorty ( yet. )
Given time and their leanings they may have had enough money to form their own Barons.

» Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:35 pm

War is War, however I also don't recall seeing the NCR with their camps lined with Crucified People, or Heads on Spikes or stories of [censored] victims either.

The NCR are the lesser of Two Evils, however, using children in the war effort makes the Legion a bunch of scum

I hate how when peoples arguments become moot they always bring this up. There are things equal to crucifixion that is just as bad or worse, crucifixion is not the end all be all of evilness.

(I'm not picking on you but so many people do that
Ncr is evil and your point got shot down
Well the legion crucified people so there)

» Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:04 pm

I hate how when peoples arguments become moot they always bring this up. There are things equal to crucifixion that is just as bad or worse, crucifixion is not the end all be all of evilness.

(I'm not picking on you but so many people do that
Ncr is evil and your point got shot down
Well the legion crucified people so there)

Crucifiction is painful, but people fail to see how brutal and jerkish the NCR is. Take for example, one of Arcades possible endings is he gets a life sentence in prison.....AFTER HE HELPS THEM DEFEND THE DAM. If that's not a cruel and dike move, I don't know what is.

» Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:22 pm

Talk to Ranger Andy in Novac, where he describes how the Legion uses children as part of their war effort.

He describes how he finds a child hiding in a closet, then he notices a grenade at his feet that the child
planted there.

Legion svck in every way possible, they have absolutely no honor whatsoever.

If that child survived then he would have been honoured very highly, although I do agree using children svck, you can train them to be little legionary's just don't send them to the front line, or maybe Andy is lying and he got crippled by a bloatfly (just kidding).

Crucifiction is painful, but people fail to see how brutal and jerkish the NCR is. Take for example, one of Arcades possible endings is he gets a life sentence in prison.....AFTER HE HELPS THEM DEFEND THE DAM. If that's not a cruel and dike move, I don't know what is.

A very dike move, he was tried as a war criminal even though he technically was not part of the Enclave proper.

» Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:07 pm

We cant accuratly describe the legion, as we have not seen their civilians or cities. Imagine if you never saw the great khans home only saw them trading drugs and attacking merchants, and whatnot. Would people still like the great khans? I dont think so.

Legion DLC is needed badly, as the Romans were architects and builders and artists and the legion does have cities. I personally need to know what kind of cities and how they treat there civilians before judging them or destroying them

» Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:58 pm

We cant accuratly describe the legion, as we have not seen their civilians or cities. Imagine if you never saw the great khans home only saw them trading drugs and attacking merchants, and whatnot. Would people still like the great khans? I dont think so.

Legion DLC is needed badly, as the Romans were architects and builders and artists and the legion does have cities. I personally need to know what kind of cities and how they treat there civilians before judging them or destroying them

Yup, as I may have said before, they are in war mode, we have only heard of Arizona being a safe trading/legion community (that's if anyone listened to the legion before blowing their heads of)

» Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:54 am

I would, outfits, voices, style, groove factor just the name and tude' are enough.
Not to mention they have history in the game series.

Also how many people have taken an instant like to CL due to them being the "bad guys", and then filling in arguements to justify that view.
You don't need to be an expert in behaviour to see how that pattern cropped up.

A dlc, will not help.
It'll either be more of the same, with just a small nod in another direction.
In case it blows the foundations already laid out of the water, making it another possible BS boob.
Or it'll destroy that work and make even bigger gaps in NV's fairly balanced story.

They really need to be the focus of their own game.
That way you get to see them without the current circumstances putting blinkers on.

» Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:53 am

At first I hated Legion and how obviously they were intended to be the bad guys, but now I'm starting to see how much of an inefficient dike the NCR is. Atleast the Legion is an efficient dike.

» Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:15 am

As Marcus said, the NCR do good for the most part, they're just over-ambitious. And what he says about Ceasers Leigon is equally true, Ceasars a smart man, but his Leigon is following him not his ideals, and when he dies it'll crumble, even if it takes a few decades

» Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:19 am

http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=57365, sort of intresting.

As Marcus said, the NCR do good for the most part, they're just over-ambitious. And what he says about Ceasers Leigon is equally true, Ceasars a smart man, but his Leigon is following him not his ideals, and when he dies it'll crumble, even if it takes a few decades

You forgot the part about how Marcus says "and that's how reveloutions happen" about NCR. Oh and if Caesar dies if Legate Lanius takes over then it sure as heck wont crumble.

» Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:42 am

NCR

» Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:03 pm

Yeah I'm not even going to try to justify Legion's current actions due to how [censored] biased this game is.
I believe in their goal in the long run.
That something good will come out of their actions several years in the future. (Maybe even 200 years forward)
So until we get a Legion DLC that shows me otherwise then yes, they are evil currently.
But I still believe it's a necessary evil.

NCR

Great contribution to the argument at hand!

» Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:03 am

I would, outfits, voices, style, groove factor just the name and tude' are enough.
Not to mention they have history in the game series.

Also how many people have taken an instant like to CL due to them being the "bad guys", and then filling in arguements to justify that view.
You don't need to be an expert in behaviour to see how that pattern cropped up.

A dlc, will not help.
It'll either be more of the same, with just a small nod in another direction.
In case it blows the foundations already laid out of the water, making it another possible BS boob.
Or it'll destroy that work and make even bigger gaps in NV's fairly balanced story.

They really need to be the focus of their own game.
That way you get to see them without the current circumstances putting blinkers on.

I took a liking to the legion because of there efficancy and the fact that no group as large of the legion is comprised entirely of evil people. Thats like saying nazi germany was made entirely of jew hating people.
A dlc would help because bethesda has laid the foundation of a diffrent point of view for the legion. Ask raul, ask other people, the legion isnt entirely designed to be the evil option in fallout new vegas

» Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:18 pm

I took a liking to the legion because of there efficancy and the fact that no group as large of the legion is comprised entirely of evil people. Thats like saying nazi germany was made entirely of jew hating people.
A dlc would help because bethesda has laid the foundation of a diffrent point of view for the legion. Ask raul, ask other people, the legion isnt entirely designed to be the evil option in fallout new vegas

I've asked everyone in game and read the articles on VB which show a more open view, so I hold little bias to any faction.
Raul say's they have done some good and stopped raider attacks out east, no details and fails to mention if those same raiders are now members.
Gloria Van Graft ( evil ) says they've done wonders, meaning caesars complete domination of his subjects.
Trudi / Sunny mentions that they've heard rumours, but may believe them to be NCR propaganda.
Two / four quests in it turns out all to be true.
Dale Barton says they have done well, but is fearfull of crossing them.
Cass is biased, shows that they could be good for certain people, but are completely wrong in general.
The Weathers family show they attack anyone they can on sight for slavery, except the PC strangely.
The optional side quests around the strip show they have no qualms about killing as many innocent people as possible for no reason than terror.
They may not at one point have been planned to be the evil choice in game, but they are atm.

The NCR have neutral feelings or even supportive ones shown by blood enemies.
The Legion has no friends outside of hostile, agressive and mostly evil factions.
Finally the Karma systems is rubish, but shoot the leaders of CL you gain karma, which means the Dev's intentionally set them as evil.
All this is from unbiassed accounts, and has been posted as neutral as possible.