Also I got off topic last night a lot, if you want to continue this PM me.
I'll be happy to debate all night, but not here cheers :foodndrink: .

I dont respect that aspect of them, I repsect their discipline and fighting skills.

Legion dammit!l

I just like the leader I find if people hear him out and dig into his story then he is the one who brought me to believe that they are the best faction out there. He made 86 tribes fall to his command, all through teaching one tribe how to clean and maintain guns and then went on through there and made Arizona safe, 0 chems and 0 raiders. I just feel that the NCR try too hard to remake the world, while Caesar is taking many many steps back and rebuilding humanity from the ground up, not just slaping bricks around without laying any foundation or planning like the NCR. http://images.wikia.com/fallout/images/6/63/Ace_of_Clubs.jpg a genius and his shell being a unfathomably strong and powerful man killing 12 men when he was 12 and being a genius at war. Not only that but I find them alot more intresting than NCR in the fact that people like http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/The_Burned_Man and many others like http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Vulpes_Inculta have outstanding roles and that they're story's interest me to no end, how has the burned survived for so many years? Where is he? I just find that they are the most unique faction ever in fallout. I saw the rise of NCR in fallout 1 and 2 from shady sands, rescuing first president Tandi from the Khans, and absorbing the squatters and retaking Vault 15, interesting, but no-were near as interesting as Caesar's legion. The NCR are just children playing soldiers, while Caesar looks at the big picture.

Trust me they are the greatest threat, and think of it this way, if the Roman army fell in the past and I quote someone say "Caesar's legion will suffer the same fate", well NCR are trying to rebuilt Government law and ruling back to the world and http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/The_Great_War that is much more devestating than the fall of an empire don't you think? Why rebuild corruption and greed?, NCR are trying to rebuilt the old world in a ruined land where the one goal is survival, Caesar's legion will survive many century's beyond NCR by a longshot.

tech is short lasting and is only good for one lifetime, the NCR will deteriorate, and the Brotherhood is dead out west, and all factions suggest getting rid of them, so Brotherhood are getting weaker by the days going by in the Mojave. If you waste not you want not that is what the legion is doing they do not rely on the Uber weapons and tech that is why they survive longer, if you waste time being dependant on tech constantly looking and searching, you will fall short and end up flat on your behind at those who work and think ahead.

being pressured into working in the army and having to pay taxes in a POST APOCALYPTIC WASTELAND is not what I call freedom. The legion lets people trade and leaves civilians be. NCR's "freedom" leads to reveloutions and rebels like Samuel cook, eventually people will get tired of NCR's foolish system and revoult. The Legion, however, set's an example, crucifiction and savage deaths stop people from disobaying Caesar's will and that is what you need in the wasteland, fast honest dicaplin. Now with the women. I can honestly understand why he made them baby momma's and teachers, because if you have them all die in combat who is going to live on the name of the faction? Again Caesar is thinking ahead.
It seem's like most people think that because they have guns and ammo and want to rebuild an old world (which was destroyed by disagrements and war) they seem to be the best, this is a wasteland, the one goal is survival not rebuilding what was faulty and broke to begin with. Most people forget the setting sometimes :facepalm:. The legion are much larger than the NCR is MUCH MUCH larger and if the courier never ventured onto the scene to rescue NCR from certain death, Legion would win hands down.
The two things that kindled my hate for the NCR was
1. The ranger encounter: The ranger says "work for us or in 3 days you will be killed" that to me, showed desparation and fear they may hide themselves behind those glasses but that is probably the most stupid and most obvious sign of fear an weakness
2. they are all hat and no cattle: They seem tough on paper through their bases such as camp Maccaren and have plenty of troops in there and they struggle against the fiends in outer Vegas, when the Legion destroyed all bandits and raiders in Arizona (from raul and dale Barton) Arizona used to be so deadly that you could not trade 2 miles up the road, then when Caesar came along he made it so safe you don't even need to hire a guard to walk up the road it's so safe.
Scratch what I said about keeping this short haha...

DEATH TO THE NCR AVE TRUE TO CAESAR!

Legion. If the legion wins, and takes over the Mojave, that will mean everyone will either be legion or dead. And so the legion citizens would grow and the empire would grow and become prosperous and the citizens would probably turn a blind eye to the slavery and sixism as the other option is living as savages or in constant danger. Civilisation whatever the cost. NCR is morally better but post apocalytic wastleand is no place for morales
NCR is trying to build a democracy from scratch and that wont work. A new democracy is always filled with corruption and greed, and its just not effective enough to rule the mojave propertly. If they win, the people of mojave will still face danger and death from the revolutions and tax from the NCR

The problem though is we can't put independent in a valid debate because the thing is, independent route is based on your own personal choices. If you're nothing but a complete [censored] to everyone you meet, I assure you that the Mojave will be in trouble, now if you're a clever saint with best intentions, then you might be the noble and true hero of the Mojave if not America. All in all, independent route is aptly named 'wild card'. It's impossible to predict, and this extends to debates as well.

I edited that part out because it did not seem right I do like being independant as it opens up more freedom for me, I just like Ceasars legion alot more out of the two.

I think you put too much faith in Caesar's power to change things. You can't indoctrinate people in an ideology then just completely change the ideology and not expect major problems no matter how much authority your leader may have. Legionnaires have basically been raised from birth to idolize the Legion's way of life and despise everything the NCR represents. Every faction they have encountered they have destroyed and rebuilt in their image and all of a sudden they're going to do an about face when Caesar tells them they can actually learn something from these particular profligates?

At best you'd have an extremely divided and unsettled society rather than the harmonious merging Caesar naively believes in until Caesar himself kicks the bucket. Once that happens his successors will go to town and do what they were taught to do.

The only real problem with the Legion is that all of this depends on Caesar living and conquering the NCR in his lifetime which he planned on capturing Hoover Dam 7 years ago so he is trying to increase the brutality and speed things up to make up for time lost but he needs a successor who will be able to keep the legion together and change it fro Ceasar's Legion to Caesar's Empire.

Once Ceasar dies, I dont think that the leigon will fall apart as Vulpes and the Legate are still in power

There would be little change if the Legion took control. The Legion are already helping and guarding any caravans who work with the Legion. I think it's obvious that the Legion will take a different approach to those refusing to join them. They will not continue attempting to convince them to join. They'll burn them or stick them on a cross until the message is received. The Legionnaires aren't raised to despise peace or protecting innocents on your side, they're brought up to despise NCR. They are brought up to do as Caesar says. They're not brainwashed, they just trust Caesar. Legionnaires are hardly going to risk life and limb for Caesar when he is the leader of an outlaw faction but when Caesar succeeds in taking control from the biggest and most powerful group in the west suddenly become disloyal and distrusting because Caesar doesn't order the massacre and [censored] of his new citizens.

Edit: The [censored] = r@pe

Legion is one of the oldest forms of government known to man......a absolute Monarchy headed by a "God-King". It will be generations before CL would have enough literate people....not to mention the political sophistication...to be able to transition to a more complex ideology such as fascism.

Caesar is a great commander but his ideals...

NCR try to do good for the Mojave but end up making a mess and killing a bunch of people. Example: Bitter Springs.

Where's House? House isn't the best decision but deserves to be mentioned.

The Courier svcks. I don't agree with him at all, he doesn't even try to do anything. All he does is sit around thinking who he should side with and before he knows it, there's a bunch of dead Legion soldiers all over Hoover Dam.

I am sure they are good people! Maybe have them over for dinner, we can talk politics right after they string up half the population!


LOL, that is funny! Or no, actually kind of sad to think Nazis = Socialists in your mind. Strange world we live in......

Guys remember Indipendant is indipendant no gods no masters, remember that. But I'm sure everyone is seeing the legion in war mode, outside of that they must be very protective about their land.

You did not listen to him at all he would not string up half the population, he will absorb it, like he did with the great khans he comes he sees he conquers, and will not give any rebels mercy, people are blinded by the NCR's cowardly lies no one see's past all the crucifictions.

Are easily justified, he is sending a message, and is doing it so no one would stand against him. Nipton was a town full of corruption and greed, almost as much as te NCR's and that's saying something, it would have been ran by powder hangers and eventually he NCR would need to divert more troops into dealing with powder gangers. The fact that Caesar is disregarding morals means that he sends a swift message to the wastes, instead of burdoning people with taxes and making them citizens, like i said in my postus maximus, you get left to do you're own thing look at dale Barton in the fort.

They don't just commit genocide against "bad guys" they kill any who have no use for them. The only way I can come close to justifying genocide is if it is against a group who are themselves genocidal and they will not talk - no chance of diplomacy working (eg. Dalecks). Most in Nipton were not bad people. Some were immoral, but they were not a threat to anyone. Not everyone in Nipton was a prosttute, chem seller, or involved with making/selling alcohol. Many if not most would have been farmers. The store Boxcars is in was just a store. Nipton shows what will happen to the people of New Vegas, and not just those of the Strip. Remember, the Powder Gangers were brought in by the Mayor to do what Inculta hired him to do. The Mayor thought the Legion would then take care of the survivors of the NCR PG fight. Inculta betrayed him. (Yes I know the Mayor was scum, but the Mayor is not the town.)

Concerning racism, they do not accept non humans. Though bigotry is a problem in the NCR, it is in their laws that non humans have equal rights. Also, I have posted before that I have not seen non whites as legionares. Not a one, and my character has killed hundreds and been to every legion encampment. I don't know if this is a programming fault or intentional.

The Legion are facist. http://www.angelfire.com/tx5/ara/pde/facism.html

Havelock, take care you'll get this locked with that last paragraph, in particular the second + sentence.


On Topic.
The Khans were not folded into the legion, they were not assimalated.
They were taken over, with the sole aim of breeding stock and to shore up the numbers lost after the campaign.
Absolutly none of their history would be remembered, their skills at trade, medicine, scouting and raiding would be broken up and lost.
No group in the legion is considered as auxilary with their own practices ad combat style.
The Romans took from those they conquered as much as they brought.
Their weapons, their tactics, training way of living even, food and lifestyles to an extent all had outside influence.

CL just takes land and healthy warriors, no learning, no culture, you can say it's different back east.
However caesar and Lanius among others are plain as to what the belief amongst the leaders and followers is.

Really if you have a favourite that's fine, but ignoring stated facts from the words of the faction itself.
In exchange for self made fantasy versions to suit your own fan crush is a tad silly.

I have seen a few black legionaries and a few Hispanic ones too I think Dead sea and the decanus in cottonwood cove is black.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Dead_Sea

My bad
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/File:Decanus_Severus_wh.jpg

Interesting racism comments about Legion, I hadn't noticed that before. Also this thread has made me reconsider House in a more positive light.

Who know's at the end of the day what the Majove needs, perhaps what it needs can't be offered from NCR or Legion. I assume when we talk about what it needs we are referring to the people and communities that live there. They appear to have food and clean water available, an effective trade set up, accomodation, some employment & entertainment. Apart from the Legion there doesn't appear to be any threats except critters, but as long as they don't try the short route to Vegas they wont get any probs from those!

If we then overlay factions like NCR, what do you think would change? I would say very little would change and would suggest very little needs to change, they seem to be doing fine by themselves. With NCR around there would probably be taxes. If you overlay the Legion the picture would significantly change, all the female NPC's in the game would dissapear into the kitchens and bedrooms and also perhaps everyone who hasn't got white skin would 'dissapear'. I don't think the Majove needs that!

One angle worth thinking about is the 5 years later... with NCR you would probably have a growing population but would feeding them be a problem. With Legion food is less likely to be a problem becasue a lot of characters would have been killed so starvation may not be an issue.

20 years later, NCR and it's scientific advances (House as well perhaps) might be in a position to make some real positive change and rebuilding, young scientists or einstein equivalents who aren't white would have been alowed to live and use their research to help advance society. Not sure legion could achieve this, or if they would it may take many generations longer to achieve while they wait for their white einstein equivalent to be born.

oh gawd I rambled on again...

Where did everyone get the idea that the legion is racist? http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/File:Decanus_Severus_wh.jpg in a wasteland there is no room for racism, (in this case only fear and bigotry of mutants but thats the same with both NCR and legion even though some rangers are ghouls and mutants and Raul wandered Arizona with no fear whatsoever)
NCR does have a good science block but to have civilisation you need people and as Marcus say's that what the NCR are doing leads to reveloutions, ever wander why there are people in the NCRCF in the first place? Caesar's legion gets civilisation through tough and swift messages.
As it says in their endings:

Read those and you get civilisation either way (read Caesar's and yes Number 2 is worse I know it generalises the legion :cryvaultboy: )
NCR achieves this, but i personally see it as brittle and uneasy. (I have completed all endings)
Basicly Caesar=good/smart
The legion= not racist. its lies spread by the NCR (i think i could be wrong) because i have never heard of the legion being racist in game I think it must be misinformation spread on these forums like the poster I quoted. :down:

Ok point taken, I will take your word for it.

Putting racism aside, I think the sixism angle alone still stands and would create a very different future, perhpas I need to take the term civilised with a pinch of salt.

You did make a very good point about those comunities allready set up.
The fiends are kept at bay mostly by those areas looking to build safe towns, armed by local militias.
Growing their own food, and trading with others, the Khans use them as suppliers as well and it seems to be suggested they keep the fiends in line slightly.

On the most part, every major faction destroys the way of life of these areas and subsumes them in their shadows.
Most either die fighting and are enslaved or drained of all their resources to favour others.
The only one of 6 different playthroughs I've seen actually improve their lot slightly in general is House.

It was a real shame that the Mojave was not made a major faction itself.
Letting the people there build their own fates.