Yes NCRs morals are grey at best. Thats how I like factions to be Grey.

NCR may not be able to fully inforce laws in the Mojave yet but if they could they would not crucify people for breaking laws (maybe for murder). Legion justice is not really justice, there is no trial and I doubt the Legion have laws in place to protect the health of POWs like NCR has.

No not all men/women are corrupted by power but history shows that "governments" where One person rules all will have very bad people running things. Its only a matter of time. Roman Empire is a great example. Nero, Caligula two great examples. Hitler, Stalin another two.

NCr areotach, a captain murdered a man for saying "no wonder your wife left you" then the PoW law results in them hiring mercs to do what they cant.
Help cass diplomatically, they dont do ustice, they just blackmail the CC and van graffs. Again no better than the legion. The legion kills based on morals/ethics the ncr dose it for money.

Talking about corruption, look at ncr, Tandi 52 years. Then you have kimball who pretty much started a pointless war for resources, and the ncr followed him. Guess he has all the power too. Hmm Kimball remind you of anyone that the internet hates ?

Besides House cant be corrupted, alcohol/chems he cant take, women he cant leave his box. Money to spen on what ? Gold plated dimond encrusted tomb he lives in that no one would see ?
House has power, he wants more, but power is a means, not and end. And any corrupting ends he cant have. Worship ? Renown, most people didnt know he was alive for decades.

Also if we are bringing in the ncrs morals lets see how about thier breach of thier treaty with house ? hving you either kill the Khans or get them to join ncr, despitte them being harmless.
The ncr is a cancer, the sooner it dies the better the wasteland will be. Besides they are idiots. They follow old world laws/morals yet we know exactly how that ended, and look the ncr is going down the exact same path. Annexing the land/Canada then fighting another equal power, that would leave both destroed or fractured, causing thier society to collapse. The ncr is the embodiment of the fallout games "war, war never changes" the ncr hasnt changed, they will go down the same pitfalls, as the old world did.

I am not saying NCR is a shining beacon for the Wasteland. I know they do things underhanded. I know they have corrupt leaders and a slow bureaucratic system and they to will be bound to get a bad leader but they can vote their leaders out. With the Legion you can't vote the leaders out. Not every leader is going to be like Julius caesar (which turned Rome into a dictatorship). Any Government where leaders are in for life and have total control is a bad one. Good if you have a great leader a nightmare if you have a very bad leader and very bad leaders often hand power over to their very bad children. Or it will just fall apart like Alexander the Greats Empire.

But the ncr wont change, the people who have the most say are brahmen barons, and they only care about one thing $$$$$. The ncr will continue to fight for resources, its greedy, and it has become to big, and soon it will die as a result. Starting the cycle again.

point is, the people voting arent effected, thus things will remain the same, even with different people voting the ncr will still fall, its following a collapsed system, how can the expect it to be a sucess ? Atleast Rome makes more sense given the situation the world is in (scattered, disorganised tribes).

the ncr is just a virus.
most traders trade with the legion over ncr because they offer protection and ncr only care about themselves

The NCR is incompetent but the Legion is a cult. I could never get behind an organization that enslaves and kills those who disagree. I can't decide between NCR and Yes Man on my first playthrough. Don't really like the NCR's infrastructure, but i think they could offer the stablist economy, which will help the Mojave better in the longterm. Guess I am leaning NCR at this point but might do Yes Man, NO interest in the Legion whatsoever.

The NCR can't help Mojaves Economy, in fact they constantly screw it over.

Trying to change the currency to NCR money, which is worth less than bottle caps and not even caring about their Trade Caravans or their Trade routes, allowing them to be taken out by anyone with a gun won't help at all.

Saying it will not change is a little extreme. A system where the people have a say is better then a system where one person rules all and can put anyone to death without a trial. The Legion brings death and slavery for anyone against them and women. NCR brings law and order for all. NCR has united a very large part of the Westen United States. Only things people (NPC) really don't like is that NCR brings taxes and bigger companies (brahmin barons). Pretty much what people complain about today taxes and big business picking on the little guy.

The NCR is well,,,,, you know, emmmm

You know what I mean

As a great man once said "Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

"People say we ought not to allow ourselves to be drawn into a theoretical antagonism between Nazidom and democracy; but the antagonism is here now. It is this very conflict of spiritual and moral ideas which gives the free countries a great part of their strength. You see these dictators on their pedestals, surrounded by the bayonets of their soldiers and the truncheons of their police. On all sides they are guarded by masses of armed men, cannons, aeroplanes, fortifications, and the like — they boast and vaunt themselves before the world, yet in their hearts there is unspoken fear. They are afraid of words and thoughts; words spoken abroad, thoughts stirring at home — all the more powerful because forbidden — terrify them. A little mouse of thought appears in the room, and even the mightiest potentates are thrown into panic. They make frantic efforts to bar our thoughts and words; they are afraid of the workings of the human mind. Cannons, airplanes, they can manufacture in large quantities; but how are they to quell the natural promptings of human nature, which after all these centuries of trial and progress has inherited a whole armoury of potent and indestructible knowledge? "

umm yes they will fail just like all good militarys there are flaws and it will happen but ceasers army may be decent but it will fall to NCR the side withh supeiror technology will win

You just said the NCR will fail now you're saying the Legion will fall to NCR who has failed... God if you put some periods I would understand you.

ok i said that the legion will fail because they all do ok

Am I the only one that's upset that this guy called Caesar a Jew.

Well, a woman of childbearing age...especially if pretty....wouldn''t be treated too roughly if she doesn't resist being made use of. But one thing to consider is that in a slave holding society, life is usually cheap indeed. As bad as it was, the antebellum South was relatively mild as far as slave based societies went...because the importation of slaves was banned in 1808 the existing slaves became more valuable as the only source of new slaves was natural growth amongst the slaves they already had. In general, that wasn't happening unless conditions were such that the slaves had something to lose. Even the most vicious and racist Simon Legree type slaveholder would think twice before killing or excessively abusing a slave that cost an average of $1000 in hard currency....roughly $30,000 in 2011 dollars. In a more typical slave owning society...such as Haiti under French rule or the CL....slaves are cheap and treated accordingly. In this situation working slaves to death is more economical that taking care of them as a steady stream of replacements keeps the overall price down. The CL is modeling itself on Rome, so no doubt many slaves find themselves being expended in the arena....both for sport and as live training aids for Legionnaires. Also, the Legion condones cannibalism so people taken as slaves can find themselves sold as meat.

A young and pretty woman could find herself just as easily sold to the White Gloves to become a entree at La Gourmand, or thrown into the arena to fight geckos with a knife as half-time entertainment, or dissected alive to train student surgeons as the stereotypical fate of being sold to a Centurion to be his baby-mama....or to a brothel to service 20 Legionnaires a day until her looks fade and she's sent out to be a pack mule until her health gives and she's fed to the Legion's dogs. As long as there is another city to overrun, or another tribe to conquer...a individual slave's life is worth little as tomorrow there will be a new crop of victims on the auction block.

That leads to something else that Legion fans overlook.....the Legion, like the Empire it is modeled on, must expand as it's economy is based on a steady flow of new slaves and booty from the Legion's conquests. The NCR isn't nearly as reliant on conquest to survive as the Legion is. Once Rome ran out of "barbarians" it could conquer to fund itself, it slowly went broke as the Caesars diverted more and more money from the State treasury to keeping the plebs quiet with "bread and circuses" and the Legions loyal by frequent cash payouts. What will happen when the Legion finds itself hemmed in by enemies it cannot conquer and the intake of fresh slaves shrivels to a trickle or ceases entirely? The most likely canon ending to NV will be either the NCR decisively defeating the CL at the Dam and annexing the Mojave outright, or more likely either House or Yes-Man gives the NCR a bloody nose and founds a new State in the Mojave. In either case the CL will have suffered a major defeat and possible decapitation of it's leadership. The Courier can also do something else that will have long term repercussions for the Legion....convince the Khans to break thier alliance with Caesar and seek thier destiny elsewhere. It's such an attractive ending for them it will probably be made canon. By the time the CL starts expanding East, they'll find a rebuilt Great Khans standing square in the way. To the West....the NCR and probably a Mojave Republic. To the East...the Khans. North and South? We don't know but we'll probably find out in the DLCs or the next Fallout. If the CL survives the grim short term, losing Caesar, Lanius...or both....or possibly the entire leadership save Inculta (methinks he disappears for a reason when you kill him), in the long term they will be surrounded by implacable enemies who are far more likely to make common cause against the CL than fight each other. And I suspect Legion slave raids into the NCR proper (AZ does share a border with CA, after all) won't be met with the flaccid response Oliver makes in the Mojave....they'll let someone like Col. Moore off thier leash to wreak havok in the Legion's rear areas because the voters will demand action.

What? Where?

He insults my country then jews?

If the NCR wasn't so corrupt with terrible leaders, i'm sure they would be perfect for the future. If people like Colonel Hsu ran the show, the wasteland would be happy. Now that I think of it, with 100 Speech, an second "good" ending for the NCR would be nice.

Caesar himself is an awful person with no respect for equality, although the Legate is actually quite a respectable guy when you meet him. The Legionaries are like Nazi's, brainwashed by going to Hitler Youth/Caesar equivalent.

NCR is whirlwind of good and evil, Caesars Legion is "evil by accident"

Lets put it this way: you felt the NCR people deserve better

Vault City was bad..you have to admit it, but I doubt CL would handle the situation differently (maybe a few lottery and crucifixion).

As for how Legion lose the 1st war, I have think Joshua Graham was on to something, but the Burned man conspiracy is worth a separate thread.

Of course I like independence, but this is about CL vs NCR.

I don't hate NCR, but I think they are lacking without Tandi, and she doesn't seems to care about "democracy".

No Democracy have broke the record of other from of government yet thank you.

When he said ssomething about Caesar, I believe the quote you used was different so he may have changed it at some point, it's like page six or earlier.

@Tiberius- I'm not ignoring you I just can't think of a rebuttal so I'm just going to sit on it. If I was in the slave situation I'd die or if I got a good looking guy I'd let him know who was boss or die, either way I'm not going to be treated like that.

i have heard somewhere that women usually take on the role as a priestess in the legion and take care of the babies that grow up to be legionaires

They will fall? How?
Explain to me how.

NCR doesn't have superior technology.
Legion uses tech as well.
I've seen them run around with marksman carbine, cowboy repeaters, thermic lance, hunting shotgun, hunting rifle, 10mm SMG, 12.7mm pistols and 12.7mm SMG.

You keep saying things like this but you never give any arguments to back your view up.
So how about actually contributing to the thread with some arguments instead of going "NCR FTW!! :celebration: "?
Like, explain to me how NCR is better, try to convince me that NCR isn't that bad after all.
Just saying "Legion svcks and they're evil." isn't constructive nor does it help the debate progress forward.

Yeah, but the Legion had order. Rome worked the same way. With slavery, brutalilty and conquering lands. If Rome were ruled by people like NCR, they would not be mighty and fall. Rome still has power, people. Besides, slavery is worse now than it was then. Slavery will always be around. The Legion has its own ways of rebuilding the world.

Kudos to you, Schmuty.

EDIT: And no, the Legion will not fall. Having superior tech doesnt mean you will win. Humans were as capable and smart as they were back then as they are now. Technology just evolved. A blade could win against a gun if you know how to. Even if the Legion were given old-day weapons, they would still be capable of bringing order and prosperity to the Mojave.

Our little goldfish friend and the blipping blue bubble called "Borodam" as well as others here serve good arguments as to why the Legion can maintain order. I don't hate NCR, but like Gabriel here, I agree with him or her.

Edit Edit: And yes, I know you support NCR. It's your opinion. And It's my opinion as to why the Legion had leadership, I'm just supporting my argument with points, is all.

A tad unfair imo.
Goverments like the NCR irl, tend to hold a trickle down effect.
The top get the most and see to it that they do.
To do this a middle class based on talent and meritocracy is built up, those with skills and brains start taking bigger and bigger slices building up a new ruling class.
This pushes up the old guard into rich but generally powerless, or lots of land / big houses and no money.
The lower classes get it rougher, they tend to be there for menial work and as stock for breeding up the next set of eager middle classes.
With the trickle down <> up effect, those that work their way up start to see problems in society and try to help the worst cases.
Leading to a basic wage, hours set, age limits on working, inequality in the home / workplace, charities for victims.
It's not perfect, it is slow, and it is strongly based on the goverment in power.

All that is why House wishes you to not attack the NCR directly.
A change of goverment allows a shift from hostile open aggression siezing assets.
To one focused on trade, protection and providing security and technology to regions.

Right lets eee.
Legion wipe out camp searchlight
They bomb the monorail (would happen if you dint intervine)
Chip away at ncr at forlorn hope
Had time to wipe out some powder gangers, you know the guys the ncr never deal with, despite releasing them to the Mojave.
Manage to storm hoover dam.
manage to assassinate kimball.
All while maintianing thier foothold against ncr.

Now lets look at this tech the ncr has.
Vertibirds, salvaged from the enclave. Only 1 was in game, suggesting low supply, and the only reason they have that is theft.
Power armour that is broken, salvaged from the BoS, end out of the power armoured elite vs the legions thermic lance elite. My money is on legion.



I am not upset, but I dont like people using the word as an insult, it either (to me) shows someone with problems with Jews or someone who likes to copy the insults you hear on xbl, ignorant to how offensive it is. That or xbl has a [censored]load of racist 12 year olds.


You mean the guy who sacrafices NCR soldiers before battle ?
The one who astes many troops for nothing, and shows no mercy. The guy is a good fighter, but a leader he is not.



VC was bad, but VC chose independance, ncr did not respect that choice and forced them to joining.
Its worse than caesers legion route because they then hide what they did. Then they use similar tactics again.
Democracy isnt something they care about. The reason they go on about it is because its a weapon, it allows them to hide thier true motives.

Also you think the burned man intended to fail to weaken the legion ?

Also ballistic fists. Damn praetorians.
Oh and chainsaws.


How is it unfair ?
They are invading another country for its resources, but claiming they are invading to bring democracy ? Now we cant go into this too much, but just think of who that resebles, and how far people are against that.
You cant support ncr, because ncr is just pushing others aside for thier own gain. Marcus lived in the NCR he admits what they do is wrong.
The ncr tries to have Marcus killed along with jacobstown. Oh with mercs too *cough*vaultcity*cough*
The ncr has you kill house, despite a treaty.
(do you really think goodsprings was an accident ? considering they then want you to kill papa khan, no goodsprings was thier idea to remova a thorn in thier side.)
The ncr sent an army to the Mojave. If you send an army to another place outside your territory, and try to occupy it its an invasion and I am well aware of the desert rangers joining ncr, but lets look at it this way, if there was a small group v a [censored] army, you can either join or be killed. Hmmm I hink I know what choice I would make. The ncr sent an army, if anyone resisted thier occupation they would be killed.
The only reason they didnt start a war is caeser, and even then they still had plans, like how they took mccarran because it let them spy on the strip.
Despite being given an embassy it wanst good enough, they wanted the whole damn thing.
And they would put thier citizens above the mojave natives. And then they would likely keep expanding. And repeat the process until they collapse, and then everywhere is set back.
Oh and anyone who isnt ncr, can go die for all they care. Followers are evicted for not helping ncr, there is no neutral, you are either with them or against them. [censored] NCR.

Not trying to flame I'm really enjoying this topic.
Just equating barons and $$$ as equaling a society doomed to be disadvantaged and fail on all levels apart from the richest.
Is not the only outcome, and tends only to fail when goverments and people take one position only and not give ground.
I.E become dictators which as shown in the NCR they do not hold that security, one mistake in judgement the top do fall.
It's also seen in FO2, at any point the corruption can be routed out, and those responsible are dealt with not always as we personally may do...
But IRL half the things I hear people want as law makes me terrified.


True lets leave any other opinions on that subject as off limits, for the sake that even friends could fall out over it easily.
Marcus also implies they have good intentions in general, just not prone to thinking things through.
Also the mercenary / VC link is a leap imo.

Been over this, you're true no excuse for that action nor any plausible denialability.
This was pure one sided greed, but then every other faction shows the same, House is the only one that wants as little force as possible.

Yes as a Khan fanatic and loyal supporter I do.
The evidence from every rational NPC, every bit of infomation in game shows it to be so.
If there was at any point a way to see it as a intentional and disgusting piece of genocide, I would have found it and used it.
The ending epilogue for NCR / Khans however is an example that should be used.
That was pure greed and spite, in no way could anyone support that as the right thing to do.

I agree that's why I put is as I did,
However asking counts, an invitation a trade of men and resources no matter how one sided still counts.


True about McCarran, but the reason they did not start a war, was because there was no one to start it with.
House without his army, the families, the Kings, the fiends.
The families only care about small power, they would have fit right in.
The Kings, if resources were not so strained by the war freeside would not be as bad.
Only because they were did feelings get heated, and tempers flare, that and the kings were cast out and left to rot by House's plans.
Fiends again without the war, most of these could be routed, ( though probably not. )

True for a bit, however every place "conquered" by the NCR has retained its own identity.
Often they go on to form the armies and personel of the NCR, while still having all the old fights and ways of life.
Look at the Van Grafts, Crimson Caravan, New Reno, the Hub, the Boneyard, Modoc....
Each one is a bad example of the perfect society, but each is free to hate and turn on the NCR or other factions within.