Legion vs NCR? Debate #3 : Fallout: New Vegas

» Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:59 pm

Raul wasn't in Arizona when the Legion rose to power. He knows nothing about what the conquest entailed (and never claims to) only how much Arizona svcked before the Legion.

So no he's not in disagreement with the notion that the Legion's method of bringing order involves mass slaughter, forced sixual intercourse (why is that word censored?) and slavery.

» Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:12 pm

In that way then idk. I don't like businessmen in general so I don't know how I feel yet about House and I would definitely take over the Mojave if I had an army and people backing me but I wouldn't be very nice to people who do bad things. For just Vegas I'd say the kings because they have the right ideals and I'd help them with my robot army.

The Empire of TayciBear already sounds better than the Legion. :lol:

What the Legion does to criminals, Raiders, ect doesn't bother me all that much....it's what they do to people who don't deserve it that put them at the top of my "needs killin' " list.

I prefer House over Caesar because House's dreams don't require institutionalized r*pe and cultural genocide to come to fruition. He's every bit as ruthless as Caesar is, he's just not nearly as cruel....or timid.

» Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:59 am

Raul wasn't in Arizona when the Legion rose to power. He knows nothing about what the conquest entailed (and never claims to) only how much Arizona svcked before the Legion.

So no he's not in disagreement with the notion that the Legion's method of bringing order involves mass slaughter, forced sixual intercourse (why is that word censored?) and slavery.

Actually...

Spoiler

Raul arrived in the Arizona town of Tucson, now known as Two Sun, wearing a Petró-Chico jumpsuit and going by the name "Miguel". He settled there, becoming a mechanic and a general handyman, his guns stashed away where they could do no further harm. After 75 years of relative peace, he met Claudia - a prosttute working in a local brothel who bore a striking resemblance to Rafaela. Spurred by this reminder of what he lost, he took the time to look out for her - though for obvious reasons never visited her.

This peace was not to last, it seems. Arizona, overrun with raiders and tribals before the rise of Caesar's Legion brought stability to the region, brought Dirty Dave and his six brothers to town looking for bullets. Raul sold them ammo, hoping they would leave now that they had what they wanted - instead, they decided they wanted the brothel. They attacked it, killing most of them and taking Claudia as a prisoner. Raul gave chase, and after a three day pursuit across the wasteland, Raul found them. Youth was not on his side anymore, however, and the battle left him severely injured. By the time he found Claudia, she was already dead. Dejected, Raul wandered west, to the Mojave Wasteland, where the Black Mountain Radio signal lured him into the captivity of Tabitha. Raul doesn't mind captivity as much as many think - at least repairing toasters for the Nightkin army gives him a sense of purpose. ~Vault Wiki

So, he was there before it....

» Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:49 am

george bush is old and look what good he did for the us.
age doesnt prove anything

You're right there, Obama is a lot younger and look how much he's screwing up the country

» Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:51 am

You're right there, Obama is a lot younger and look how much he's screwing up the country

Wow, older white male, you know everything about running a country. Now I know why you know better than me. Goodbye.

» Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:33 am

You're right there, Obama is a lot younger and look how much he's screwing up the country

Not really Obama's fault.

It's more of the whole idiotic senate, both sides to.

But I digress, this isn't what the thread is about.

» Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:25 am

Actually...

Spoiler

Raul arrived in the Arizona town of Tucson, now known as Two Sun, wearing a Petró-Chico jumpsuit and going by the name "Miguel". He settled there, becoming a mechanic and a general handyman, his guns stashed away where they could do no further harm. After 75 years of relative peace, he met Claudia - a prosttute working in a local brothel who bore a striking resemblance to Rafaela. Spurred by this reminder of what he lost, he took the time to look out for her - though for obvious reasons never visited her.

This peace was not to last, it seems. Arizona, overrun with raiders and tribals before the rise of Caesar's Legion brought stability to the region, brought Dirty Dave and his six brothers to town looking for bullets. Raul sold them ammo, hoping they would leave now that they had what they wanted - instead, they decided they wanted the brothel. They attacked it, killing most of them and taking Claudia as a prisoner. Raul gave chase, and after a three day pursuit across the wasteland, Raul found them. Youth was not on his side anymore, however, and the battle left him severely injured. By the time he found Claudia, she was already dead. Dejected, Raul wandered west, to the Mojave Wasteland, where the Black Mountain Radio signal lured him into the captivity of Tabitha. Raul doesn't mind captivity as much as many think - at least repairing toasters for the Nightkin army gives him a sense of purpose. ~Vault Wiki

So, he was there before it....

Yes he was and I've never said otherwise. Read what I wrote. He was there before the Legion rose to power he was not present when the Legion conquered Arizona so he has no firsthand information on what the conquest entailed. His whole "Arizona used to svck before the Legion took over" line (I'm paraphrasing obviously) is in no way him saying the Legion wasn't horrendously brutal in their conquest which is what people have been claiming it is.

» Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:35 am

So because you're older you know more, yeah right. Why don't you get back to me when you realize age does not equate sense or understanding.

I'm done with you insulting my intelligence and to be clear, you said talk to everyone and as of last count Raul is someone and does not agree with you.

You read Far Far too much into everything everybody says.
You need to calm down.
Raul is one Ghoul, who according to a guy a few posts above this wasn't even in Arizona at the time,
there are PLENTY of other NPCs that will tell you what they saw the legion do.

So according to your statistics if 20 people say they saw the legion do horrible things, and ONE Ghoul named Raul
says he didn't see anything, then Raul's word takes precedence over the other 20 opinions...
Nice.....but Statistics matter in this......

Obviously you've got a major crush on the Legion and see them as "OK Guys", even despite what they do.
After all, you're giving them the "Nuremberg Defense" of "We do what we're told", "We were under orders to kill all those people so we're not at fault"

» Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:31 am

Wow, older white male, you know everything about running a country. Now I know why you know better than me. Goodbye.

Now, how can you possibly jump to the conclusion that I'm an older white male, yet accuse me of jumping to conclusions about
the Legion?

How do you know if I'm Chinese, Black, White, Hispanic etc?

Talk about stereotyping.....just because I don't like Obama automatically turns me into an older white male?

What a racist thing to say.

» Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:03 pm

Yes he was and I've never said otherwise. Read what I wrote. He was there before the Legion rose to power he was not present when the Legion conquered Arizona so he has no firsthand information on what the conquest entailed. His whole "Arizona used to svck before the Legion took over" line (I'm paraphrasing obviously) is in no way him saying the Legion wasn't horrendously brutal in their conquest which is what people have been claiming it is.

It was brutal.

That's how you take over a brutal country; with equal or greater amounts of Violence.

» Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:40 am

Razor- I didn't say Raul negated anything but you implying that our opinions are somehow inferior to yours because you are older is insulting.

Those npcs were not in Arizona before it was conquered and by your logic if twenty people say something bad about someone it's automatically right? That doesn't make sense. I don't care what the legion is doing now but what the future will entail and I actually do not support the legion. I just think they're better than the ncr.

And by you not only saying that Obama is ruining our country and using your overbearing attitude to say that our opinions are not as good as yours only increases my suspicions. your comment was uncalled for and although the other guys was too, you are older and should know better than to stoop to that level.

» Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:09 am

It was brutal.

That's how you take over a brutal country; with equal or greater amounts of Violence.

Yet the Legion does this everywhere they go. It's not like they base their levels of extremity on how civilized they view people. Everyone who isn't in the Legion is a profligate. The only varying degree is if you fight the Legion or not. There are no civilized and uncivilized profligates. The methods used in Arizona are the same the Legion will use in the Mojave and if they ever manage it, in California as well.

The Legion is a ridiculous option because their idea of civilization is so objectively inferior to the NCR's vision to anyone possessing contemporary civilized morality it's not even funny. We can talk about shades of gray all you want but the Legion is about as close as you can get to an obviously evil option in New Vegas.

» Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:40 am

Razor- I didn't say Raul negated anything but you implying that our opinions are somehow inferior to yours because you are older is insulting.

Those npcs were not in Arizona before it was conquered and by your logic if twenty people say something bad about someone it's automatically right? That doesn't make sense. I don't care what the legion is doing now but what the future will entail and I actually do not support the legion. I just think they're better than the ncr.

And by you not only saying that Obama is ruining our country and using your overbearing attitude to say that our opinions are not as good as yours only increases my suspicions. your comment was uncalled for and although the other guys was too, you are older and should know better than to stoop to that level.

Meh, I'm done with you, you're a racist that jumps to conclusions, especially when you say "And by you not only saying that Obama is ruining our country
and using your overbearing attitude to say that our opinions are not as good as yours only increases my suspicions." the only thing you left out was "that you're a White Person."

Nice..............

» Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:22 pm

Yet the Legion does this everywhere they go. It's not like they base their levels of extremity on how civilized they view people. Everyone who isn't in the Legion is a profligate. The only varying degree is if you fight the Legion or not. There are no civilized and uncivilized profligates. The methods used in Arizona are the same the Legion will use in the Mojave and if they ever manage it, in California as well.

The Legion is a ridiculous option because their idea of civilization is so objectively inferior to the NCR's vision to anyone possessing contemporary civilized morality it's not even funny. We can talk about shades of gray all you want but the Legion is about as close as you can get to an obviously evil option in New Vegas.

They wouldn't use the same methods as they did in Arizona, that was made obvious in New Vegas and with the Legion Ending.

Have you ever played/finished the game with Caesar's Legion?

» Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:23 pm

You read Far Far too much into everything everybody says.
You need to calm down.
Raul is one Ghoul, who according to a guy a few posts above this wasn't even in Arizona at the time,
there are PLENTY of other NPCs that will tell you what they saw the legion do.

So according to your statistics if 20 people say they saw the legion do horrible things, and ONE Ghoul named Raul
says he didn't see anything, then Raul's word takes precedence over the other 20 opinions...
Nice.....but Statistics matter in this......

Obviously you've got a major crush on the Legion and see them as "OK Guys", even despite what they do.
After all, you're giving them the "Nuremberg Defense" of "We do what we're told", "We were under orders to kill all those people so we're not at fault"

And the NCR doesn't take orders to kill innocent civillians? Bitter Springs. Just because the Legion do things different doesn't mean you have the right to not like them. They would control Hoover Dam better than NCR.

» Mon Feb 16, 2009 1:52 am

And the NCR doesn't take orders to kill innocent civillians? Bitter Springs. Just because the Legion do things different doesn't mean you have the right to not like them. They would control Hoover Dam better than NCR.

And let's not forget that the Legion is actually effective when it comes to taking out gangs and raiders...

» Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:18 pm

And the NCR doesn't take orders to kill innocent civillians? Bitter Springs. Just because the Legion do things different doesn't mean you have the right to not like them. They would control Hoover Dam better than NCR.

how about helios one when they want you to only give power to the strip and camp mccaran.the ncr is only out for themselves

» Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:30 am

They wouldn't use the same methods as they did in Arizona, that was made obvious in New Vegas and with the Legion Ending.

Have you ever played/finished the game with Caesar's Legion?

Yes. They enslaved, killed or forcibly integrated everyone whose ending slide they were in except the Boomers (out of fear) and Goodsprings which was apparently not noticed as far as I recall.

No contest compared to the NCR slides.

» Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:15 am

And let's not forget that the Legion is actually effective when it comes to taking out gangs and raiders...

Extremley effective. :gun:

» Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:24 am

how about helios one when they want you to only give power to the strip and camp mccaran.the ncr is only out for themselves

What kind of argument is this? Everyone is out for themselves including the Legion.

No one is claiming the NCR is some kind of wonderful benevolent force out to help the people of the Mojave simply out of the good of their hearts the argument is what the NCR is bringing to the Mojave (entirely out of greedy self-interest) is infinitely superior to the "civilization" the Legion is planning to bring to the Mojave (also entirely out of self-interest).

» Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:05 am

Yes. They enslaved, killed or forcibly integrated everyone whose ending slide they were in except the Boomers (out of fear) and Goodsprings which was apparently not noticed as far as I recall.

No contest compared to the NCR slides.

They where enslaved or killed because they fought back. People die in war; Goodsprings was ignored because it had no strategic value what so ever.

Caesar almost immediatly wipes out all the raider/gangs in the Wasteland, something the NCR failed horribly at.

...is infinitely superior to the "civilization" the Legion is planning to bring to the Mojave (also entirely out of self-interest).

Really?

How so?

» Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:14 pm

And the NCR doesn't take orders to kill innocent civillians? Bitter Springs. Just because the Legion do things different doesn't mean you have the right to not like them. They would control Hoover Dam better than NCR.

Sweet Jesus. A singular atrocity brought about by garbled orders is in no way comparable to the Legion's widespread and calculated atrocities. All it proves is that the NCR can make mistakes. Everyone can make mistakes.

» Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:55 am

the ncr has fiends right behind them and they cant even take care of that

» Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:35 pm

Sweet Jesus. A singular atrocity brought about by garbled orders is in no way comparable to the Legion's widespread and calculated atrocities. All it proves is that the NCR can make mistakes. Everyone can make mistakes.

Oh yea.

Because wiping out a entire group of Civillians fleeing a battle is really a 'Mistake'.

» Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:21 am

They wouldn't use the same methods as they did in Arizona, that was made obvious in New Vegas and with the Legion Ending.

Have you ever played/finished the game with Caesar's Legion?

If you act according to his will he doesn't have to...the Omertas exterminate most of the people on the Strip and the White Gloves are in hiding waiting for Caesar to call them to his service. All that remains is to put the Omertas themselves up on crosses or serve them as entrees at La Gourmand then he can turn to other matters such as exterminating the Kings.

They would control Hoover Dam better than NCR.

It wouldn't remain operational for six months without maintenance support from the NCR. Even House would have to pay the NCR to get some of the more specialized parts for the generators.