Legion vs NCR? Debate #3

Post » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:03 am

If you act according to his will he doesn't have to...the Omertas exterminate most of the people on the Strip and the White Gloves are in hiding waiting for Caesar to call them to his service. All that remains is to put the Omertas themselves up on crosses or serve them as entrees at La Gourmand then he can turn to other matters such as exterminating the Kings.


No where in the ending, any of them in fact, does it mention the Omertas or the White Gloves.

It just says that Caesar walks into the Strip as though it where his greatest Triumph.

Also wasn't refering to the Kings, was talking about the Fiends.
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Grace Francis
 
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Post » Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:49 am

And the NCR doesn't take orders to kill innocent civillians? Bitter Springs. Just because the Legion do things different doesn't mean you have the right to not like them. They would control Hoover Dam better than NCR.

wow you act like the legion doesnt make mistakes well they do all the damn time
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nath
 
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Post » Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:49 am

Sweet Jesus. A singular atrocity brought about by garbled orders is in no way comparable to the Legion's widespread and calculated atrocities. All it proves is that the NCR can make mistakes. Everyone can make mistakes.


Ummm...Bitter Springs was organized. Yes, it was later tried to be stopped later by what this guy at Camp McCarran said, but they disobeyed orders and kept shooting. If that's not organized, what is?
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Amie Mccubbing
 
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Post » Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:08 pm

I just don't like people who need money. Why do I need more than 200,000 a year, I wouldn't even know what to do with that much money let alone more and then you want more and more and then you start screwing people over for a few bucks that you can't even spend because you already have too much money. I just don't understand it and I don't want to work for anyone like that. (sorry if that got off topic, were talking about this in English and poli sci)

Well if I PERSONALLY were put in Houses position, once all the Vegas conquest stuff was said and done, I'd start investing in building stone and brick walls, or at least walls that don't make my city look like some generic wasteland settlement. Money isn't a bad thing, it's how we let it influence us, and House isn't corrupt, he's no white knight, but he's very progress minded.
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Sophh
 
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Post » Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:59 am

Ummm...Bitter Springs was organized. Yes, it was later tried to be stopped later by what this guy at Camp McCarran said, but they disobeyed orders and kept shooting. If that's not organized, what is?

hello and the legion isnt
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X(S.a.R.a.H)X
 
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Post » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:49 am

wow you act like the legion doesnt make mistakes well they do all the damn time


Such as...?
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Eduardo Rosas
 
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Post » Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:49 am

wow you act like the legion doesnt make mistakes well they do all the damn time

the burned man is the only mistake i can think of.
everything else is intentional
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Marcus Jordan
 
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Post » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:05 am

hello and the legion isnt


Obviously you've never played this game...


Even in the Loading Screens it says that the NCR Army is disorginized, with diffrent soldiers having diffrent weapons, no body armor and having mixed feelings about their Country and Mission. While the Legion is incredibly loyal to Caesar; never disobeying a order.
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Kaylee Campbell
 
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Post » Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:07 am

They where enslaved or killed because they fought back. People die in war; Goodsprings was ignored because it had no strategic value what so ever.


No. Even the ending with Caesar living has him enslaving most of the population and there is no mention of this being due to resistance. Potential Arcade endings mention refugees being hunted down and slaughtered regardless of who you put in charge. Fleeing is resistance? Put Lanius in charge and it's even worse.

Caesar almost immediatly wipes out all the raider/gangs in the Wasteland, something the NCR failed horribly at.


Possibly because he doesn't have to deal with a massive militant force hellbent on destroying him draining all his resources on the other side of the Colorado? The NCR gets it's gang problems under control if you help them drive off the Legion.

Really?

How so?


Presence of democracy and individual rights, however corrupt and debased they may be at times. Absence of state religion. Absence of slavery. Far less misogyny. Recognition of the laws of war as opposed to brutal savagery. No brainwashing of children. Absence of cruel and unusual punishments. Recognition of the value of advanced medicine. Recognition of the value of advanced technology in general.

This can go on for a while.
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sophie
 
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Post » Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:42 pm

It wouldn't remain operational for six months without maintenance support from the NCR. Even House would have to pay the NCR to get some of the more specialized parts for the generators.


No look the NCR fixed the generators. If they break, the Legion could get supplies from REPPCON factories and museums, Gibson Scrap Yard, etc. But the NCR fixed so well there's no possible they'll break.
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matt
 
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Post » Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:00 pm

Well if I PERSONALLY were put in Houses position, once all the Vegas conquest stuff was said and done, I'd start investing in building stone and brick walls, or at least walls that don't make my city look like some generic wasteland settlement. Money isn't a bad thing, it's how we let it influence us, and House isn't corrupt, he's no white knight, but he's very progress minded.

That is true. I just know how easily money can corrupt and I'd be afraid another pre-war America would happen which.I believe the ncr is heading to. That's why I like the legion more because they are different and don't seem to let money influence them but they have bad qualities too so it's really a catch 22. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
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BRAD MONTGOMERY
 
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Post » Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:51 am

Oh yea.


Because wiping out a entire group of Civillians fleeing a battle is really a 'Mistake'.


Yes it was. The officers in charge assumed the Khan civilians fleeing Bittersprings were warriors attempting to escape. Or that warriors were part of the fleeing group. It's far from an unreasonable mistake to make under battle conditions particularly when you realize the guys giving the orders weren't actually present but appeared to be communicating with the troops by radio.

I'm gonna go out a limb here and assume you've never been in combat. Mistakes happen.
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ShOrty
 
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Post » Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:02 am

Obviously you've never played this game...


Even in the Loading Screens it says that the NCR Army is disorginized, with diffrent soldiers having diffrent weapons, no body armor and having mixed feelings about their Country and Mission. While the Legion is incredibly loyal to Caesar; never disobeying a order.

Well Silus broke his orders but I cant think of anyone else doing so.

My problem with most NCR troops is that they come off like they are entitled to everything, and Kimballs speech the line saying something akin to 'I hear the people back home say 'what is Nevada to us? Why should we care?' and honestly, I just think the NCR is to spoiled and self entitled, plus, their military is highly efficient, what I dont get is why they didnt send 1st Recon to snipe Nelson down, they'd have won it quick. My point is, I find the NCR is becoming, as Victor describes Benny, 'all hat and no cattle if you ask me'.

Edit @Tayci- Well, I'd say House's endings are arguably the best 'happy endings' out of any faction. House makes a point by showing he has no interest in government, only business and progress, and honestly, that meld perfectly in my political opinions. Capitalism at it's finest.
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Dona BlackHeart
 
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Post » Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:42 am

Such as...?


The Legion have flaws, too. Just to inform you.
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Sunny Under
 
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Post » Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:20 am

The Legion have flaws, too. Just to inform you.

I just think he means that epicness tends to say his opinion without saying why he believes that or giving evidence for it so he is asking him to elaborate.

@colonel- hopefully it lasts, things tend to go south quickly.
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Big Homie
 
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Post » Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:46 pm

Ummm...Bitter Springs was organized. Yes, it was later tried to be stopped later by what this guy at Camp McCarran said, but they disobeyed orders and kept shooting. If that's not organized, what is?


Where did I say it wasn't organized? I said the massacre was due to garbled orders rather than being intentional. Everyone in the game (including Papa Khan) agrees with this.
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Travis
 
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Post » Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:46 am

Where did I say it wasn't organized? I said the massacre was due to garbled orders rather than being intentional. Everyone in the game (including Papa Khan) agrees with this.


Exactly what I said. Organized: Intentional.
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Kevan Olson
 
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Post » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:11 am

Exactly what I said. Organized: Intentional.


What? I don't get your point. Are you saying those two words mean the same thing? Because they don't.
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Conor Byrne
 
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Post » Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:29 am

No. Even the ending with Caesar living has him enslaving most of the population and there is no mention of this being due to resistance. Potential Arcade endings mention refugees being hunted down and slaughtered regardless of who you put in charge. Fleeing is resistance? Put Lanius in charge and it's even worse.


What? There's mention of resistance all over the place.

Spoiler

The Followers: After the Legion's victory, Caesar, out of a strange respect for his old fellows, allowed the Followers safe passage out of the wasteland. Reluctantly, the Followers accepted the offer and abandoned Old Mormon Fort to the Legion.

Novac: Though Novac was a low-priority target for the Legion, many of Novac's citizens died in its defense. With no other communities coming to its defense, Novac would eventually fall to the Legion's persistent attacks.

Freeside (Kings): After their victory at Hoover Dam, Legion troops rolled through Freeside. The Kings tried to fight back, but most were killed, and the rest fled into the wasteland.

Primm (NCR becoming 'Sheriff): Despite NCR's pledge to support Primm, they abandon the town after their loss to Caesar. Though Caesar keeps Primm open for business, its citizens live under the constant watch of Legion soldiers.

Primm (Meyers): Hot-headed to the end, Sheriff Meyers choose to oppose Caesar's takeover of Primm with a standoff. Though the citizens take out a few Legionaries, the town quickly falls to Caesar, its citizens utterly wiped out.

Legion Ending:Caesar entered The Strip as though it was his Triumph. The Legion pushed the NCR out of New Vegas entirely, driving them back to the Mojave Outpost. The Legion occupied all major locations, enslaving much of the population and peacefully lording over the rest. Under the Legion's banner, civilization - unforgiving as it was - finally came to the Mojave wasteland.


Possibly because he doesn't have to deal with a massive militant force hellbent on destroying him draining all his resources on the other side of the Colorado? The NCR gets it's gang problems under control if you help them drive off the Legion.

Spoiler


Fiends: Never weakened by NCR, the Fiends staged an attack against Camp McCarran during the second Battle of Hoover Dam. Though NCR repulsed the Fiends, they suffered heavy losses in the process. Yes, they where destroyed but with heavy losses.

Fiends (Legion): The Fiends attacked Camp McCarran during the second Battle of Hoover Dam and suffered heavy losses. Caesar, unimpressed with their performance and their dependence on chems, had them exterminated.

Vault 19 Powder Gangers: Armed with a wide array of improvised explosives and stolen weapons, the Vault 19 Powder Gang tormented the Mojave Wasteland for years. Citizens of the NCR were favorite targets, and they always suffered the worst fates.

Powder Gangers: Most Powder Gangers at the Correctional Facility fled into the wasteland rather than face the advancing forces of the Legion. Those brave or foolish to remain were killed or crucified by the merciless Legionaries.



Presence of democracy and individual rights, however corrupt and debased they may be at times. Absence of state religion. Absence of slavery. Far less misogyny. Recognition of the laws of war as opposed to brutal savagery. No brainwashing of children. Absence of cruel and unusual punishments. Recognition of the value of advanced medicine. Recognition of the value of advanced technology in general.

This can go on for a while.


Individual Rights? Most people in the NCR have no say as to what goes on, the large land owners and Barhmin Barons do.

Ha! 'Laws of War'?! Don't be naive.

Absence of State Religion would be more of a weakness, would make them less unified.

Brainwashing of Children isn't bad nor good, it helps the Legion in the end.

Absence of curel and unsual punishment? The NCR either kills it's prisoners or sends them away to do hard labor, under poor conditions. Says it in one of the loading screens.
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Tikarma Vodicka-McPherson
 
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Post » Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:29 am

@colonel- hopefully it lasts, things tend to go south quickly.

Indeed, but I'm more comfortable with Mr. House's independent Vegas as opposed to Yes-Man, who strongly hints he'll dike you over. You see, with a man like Mr. House in charge, his system is relatively perfect in ideology, money does not judge, money does not kill, money does not cast insults, it is the man with his hand on that dollar. The NCR is the last thing Vegas needs. The Legion is cute and all what with their backwards idea of 'start over from scratch' but it'd essentially repeat the Great War again in some point in time. But at least the Legion has a more iron will than NCR troops. But, as I said, I side with Vegas and House, not NCR, Yes Man, or Legion.
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Tyrel
 
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Post » Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:39 am

Hah, gotta love Epicness' "You're wrong and I'm right" style of arguing.
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butterfly
 
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Post » Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:09 pm

Yes it was. The officers in charge assumed the Khan civilians fleeing Bittersprings were warriors attempting to escape. Or that warriors were part of the fleeing group. It's far from an unreasonable mistake to make under battle conditions particularly when you realize the guys giving the orders weren't actually present but appeared to be communicating with the troops by radio.

I'm gonna go out a limb here and assume you've never been in combat. Mistakes happen.


The Officers in Charge weren't even at Bitter Springs.


And no I haven't been in combat before and although I know things get confusing and mistakes happen, it's fairly easy to distguish a large group of Civillians and Wounded from a group of fleeing Enemy Combatants.

Civillians and Wounded generally don't shoot back.
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Kaley X
 
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Post » Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:29 pm

What? I don't get your point. Are you saying those two words mean the same thing? Because they don't.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/organized http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/intentional Hope that clears things up.
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GPMG
 
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Post » Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:24 pm

@colonel- as long as you are watching house closely then I will concede and join... The dark side.

@Bill- if you don't kill the ghouls don't they help the people of novac.
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Lisa
 
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Post » Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:44 am

@Bill- if you don't kill the ghouls don't they help the people of novac.


They help some of the people escape.

That's really it though.
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Del Arte
 
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