Oh ok, I killed them my first playthrough so yeah.

Yea.

Same.

Great minds think alike.

@anyone-what does ftw mean, I've been trying to figure it out and coming up with stuff that's not working.

You killed the Bright Brotherhood. You are racist. :tongue:

I don't want no ghouls stinking up my land. (jOke)

Against Ghouls?


Yea, pretty much.

Must purge the Mutant....

We can't be friends anymore...

I always play as a Good Karma character

also

Killing House nets you bad karma, so it has to show House isn't evil, just emotionally distant. I dunno, you'd have to play through a House playthrough and make up your mind on that.

I'm pretty sure he's set as Neutral in the G.E.C.K.

Yes, he is.

@Tayci- FTW= For the Win. :laugh:

The final slide you mention, which is the second one shown in the actual ending, makes no mention of resistance offered to Caesar upon his entry to the Strip yet still mentions much of the population being enslaved. It also supersedes all others. Look up Arcade's endings one of which mentions refugees being hunted down and butchered by the Legion. Fleeing is not resistance.



I'll take these point by point in the spoiler tags.







They have more say than anyone in the Legion ever will. Furthermore there is a basis for reform there unlike the Legion.



What's naive about the laws of war?



Well sure. But I'd take a weaker Mojave over one plunged into Dark Age style religious fundamentalism any day of the week.



Wait are we arguing about efficacy or morality? Because I'm arguing for morality in terms of what the Mojave needs. You seem to be arguing about which side would win.



No the NCR mostly kills criminals in the Mojave because they're operating under martial law. Prisoners are not treated like that in California. Nor was every prisoner in California sent to the powder gangs.

d'oh

Exactly my point. The officers who ordered the troops to open fire couldn't just look at all the fleeing people and see they were women and children. They assumed the fleeing Khans were warriors or contained warriors trying to escape and reacted accordingly.



Not if you're not on the ground it isn't. Nor is it inconceivable for the troops who were on the ground to have come to the conclusion that some Khan warriors were using the civilians as cover or to try to escape and that command knew something they didn't to that effect. Mistakes like that happen all the time in war. What's remarkable to me is that the NCR has only had one Bittersprings massacre.

In the course of "Render Unto Caesar" the Courier is sent by Caesar to the Ultra-Luxe to offer the White Gloves a deal in which in exchange for swearing allegiance to him they will remain free and have leave to resume thier practice of cannibalism. From the dialogue with Caesar they are part of his post-conquest plans, thier role will be to help administer his newest conquest. Are you saying that since they aren't in a ending slide he changed his mind or lied to begin with?

Afraid it doesn't. Your point still makes no sense to me. The NCR troops at Bittersprings were organized. They did not intend to kill civilians. There is difference between organized and intentional. Just because you are organized while committing an action (like any military force will be) does not mean you intended to commit that action. Got it?

Billy was part of the organized crime. He had intended to confuse the cops

Wow, I sure missed a lot of juicy debating since I went to sleep. >_<

Anyway, 21 in about a month, female, goldfish.

Oh and I'd like to contribute with this: http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout:_New_Vegas_endings
If you're unsure about endings or haven't experienced them all or can't remember them all then this will help.



So, Legion.
Another take on them is this: We live in a civilized world IRL, where as NCR and House represent what is familiar to us.
So lets say.... There is a tribe IRL which is filled with cannibals, they eat their foes flesh as they believe it strengthens them.
Why?
Religion perhaps?
Anyway, that is every day life to them.
Where as "not" eating humans is every day life to us. (Well, for most of us here anyway.)
So think about it.
If you were born into the Legion you wouldn't be "brainwashed", you'd just live in a world that is familiar to you.
It isn't bad.
It's home.
It's who you are, it's what your beliefs are.
Legionnaires that are born into the Legion are not evil at all, they live in world where what they do is perfectly normal.
So again, it's about perspective.
Since we all live in a civilized world IRL it's easier for us to sympathize with those that represent it the most.
But it does not make the Legion bad IMO.
It makes them of a different world.

Yes, they do enslave a lot of people, but we only have 4 slaves to go by which reside in The Fort which is a military camp.
We don't know how they generally treat the majority of slaves in their civilized locations.
So generalizing Legion by the account of a dozen people or less?
It's a bit premature.
On the other hand, we can't justify speculation all the time either.
So on the slave part, Legion shouldn't really be touched, because we know extremely little of how it actually is.

They do kill people, but one needs to look at who they kill.









I can understand why they did kill most of these people, I don't like it, in fact, I think it's horrible anyone has to die really.
But I understand why they had to die.

Citizens.
What do we know?
We know they watch over Primm, we know they peacefully lord over some of the people in The Strip, we know they have a trader in The Fort.
But we don't know "how" the lord over their people, we don't know "how" many got to stay citizens and why they were allowed to be that.
We have no idea of what a civilized Legion is really.

So why do I support Legion even though I know very little of their citizens?
Cause they seem better than NCR.
Until I see that Legion treats their citizens like absolute crap I will still support them.
Cause while we don't have a lot of hard facts about them being treated well we also don't have any hard facts of people being treated badly either. (citizens)
So it might be blind support but opposing the Legion and saying they're wrong is also very blind.
All comes down to speculation about it.


And offtopic: Can we make it to Thread #4 perhaps? :drool:

the threads go by quickly so there will most likely be a 4th thread

Love it when The Swedish Goldfish post. I bet she has a whole pack of que cards as to why she supports Legion(is awesome)....Anyways
And, I belive the Legion treats citizens right, but just attack those that oppose (that rhymes). I mean, if you start the game and wander a bit, you'll come across the Legion sometime, no? They don't mindlessly attack the Courier for no good reason. The Legion has its reason as to why they raid towns. I've never played through as a woman in New Vegas, but I am quite sure the Legion don't try to leash a collar around her neck.

Always late to the party... Hope I can be in thread 4

I mostly wing it. (But I guess I should save some of my posts to copy paste for future debates, would save some time. :laugh: )
And I mostly play as female characters and they only comment I got from Legion was the arena guy who was a bit sixist.
Other than that I can't remember getting treated any worse than when I was a male character.

@ Gabriel, could that reaallly be called debating last night.
+
I'd love it to, just to see the topic description you tag it with.

Off topic: Hiya I'm a 30' ish, white, non american, of no political persuassion, does my opinion count ( please say no. )

Back to the Fishy one..
States control children all the time, they take the natural family structure and break it down.
To the effect of making the responsabilty of childcare society based and tied into the very foundation of state.
This means no parents, no children just the those that train and those that are trained.
The best 1st world example is a same six boarding school, mixed with a military acadamy.
Good in principle, forms structure and order but ingrains conformity and elitism that festers and stagnates.

Look at sparta, it had the whole two tier system.
The spartans were the lords and held pride in martial honour.
They used a bred up slave population as both workers, producers and game to hunt.
Their trial into manhood was to go out and kill one of these sub classes, to prove their strength and skill.
What it did not account for is that other nations grew smarter, and that pure physical prowess does not make up for advanced tactics and diplomacy.
Leading the slaves to raise up and get support from other nations sparta PO.

Rome fell again and again it was not one single event, it had capitulated many times to many rulers and even to outside nations.

All the examples you give, makes the Legion sound as if it was defending itself from a hoarde of Vandals.
The town was bad, so were the Omertas, the Khans, the Fiends.. the legion still used them.
Killing of the elderly to manipulate the young...... getting rid of wisdom..
Novacr etired NCR individuals keeping order and security....= the whole town wiped out legion style.

The thing about the Legion only having a small portion of the games content is doing these a favour imo...
As any more singular view can spot the seemy side to NCR easily, and make a conspiracy that fills the faction..
Rather than those that hold the individual blame.
With the Legion the whole legion in game is at war by the accounts here, no society is shown.
No grey details are given untill the end credits, the same ones that have a female PC stamped on a coin and made a hero, where very other female "helper" is enslaved.
So many ideas can spring from the view that you can't say that about them as a whole, because we don't know.
Are using loopholes and holding onto strings.. they can evade the in game truth and point to bad things others do.
This does not mean that the educated evidence points to the legion being bad as it points to that wholly.
More so than anyother faction bar the fiends / strip families.

Two to six qoutes in favour of, only one or two based on a neutral source.
Then those same neutral sources + some say that the NCR can are good too if misguided.

Sorry but I felt very confused about that post. (Mind dumbing it down? Goldfish have very low IQ after all.)

:rofl: Never say you're low in IQ, not here anyway as it'll be used against you.

Just trying to add some new spin or ideas...

Ok here goes...
3rd part.. Saying we don't see the Legion as anything other than a force for war actually does the CL fans a favour..
More content would not likely to do as such.

We can see how bad the NCR can get due to all those sidequests, all those areas that have no direct contact with the war.
If a plain ol' war force in the Mojave there would be a lot fewer quotes used to say how bad they are.
If the legion got the same treatment and were given equal footing on the map, so we could see a none war area.
Given the current quests you have to perform for them, and dialogue expressed just by their members.
I see no favours being given from seeing them chillaxing at all.

GGGGGGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH..
I just can't tone this down, sorry.

3rd part redo,
NCR big target, lots of content easy to take one or two converstations and twist to own ends..
Anyone can point to them and shout they're not good and dooomed to fail, due to seeing all aspects.

CL in game a very small taget.
Little content, but none of it grey, hard to nail down and say they're evil because...
Obvious defense... we can't say that you don't see every part of their lives and society.
This means the more content you're shown the less defense you'll have.
As most likely you won't be happy with what you receive by the Dev's, and will need to squirm some more on the hook to find another loophole.

Well, if they show the rest and I'm unhappy then I'll change my mind to House or NCR or just accept it and stick with Legion.
So right now I think Legion is the best for everyone, if I'm showed more of them to see how they treat a larger amount of slaves and see how they treat citizens then I might change my mind to another faction.
I'm not saying that I'm hellbent on that Legion is the best period, but that right now out of the three I find Legion to be most suited.
If it shows I'm wrong then I wont be mad about it. I'll just change my mind to another faction.
So even if the new content provides positive or negative input on Legion it's still needed for me.