Legion vs NCR? Debate #4 : Fallout: New Vegas

» Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:19 am

@styles-I believe (especially in lawlessness) to make examples of people. The powder gangers were the ncrs creation and they have not done anything, now the legion has no fear of the powder gangers attacking them at least.

NCR does not have the troops to deal with powder gangers and the Legion. Troops cost taxes and training and NCR is a domocracy so they can't just force people to go to war without pay. Legion can. They can kidnap you in the middle of the night kill your family, enslave your wife and kids and force you to be canon fodder.

» Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:29 pm

@styles-I believe (especially in lawlessness) to make examples of people. The powder gangers were the ncrs creation and they have not done anything, now the legion has no fear of the powder gangers attacking them at least.

True. All-in-all it was a good place for the legion to make its mark. They demoralize the NCR by moving further into the Mojave, they got rid of a town that really needed to go, and they killed a good handful of Powder Gangers. A good day's of work I'd say.

NCR does not have the troops to deal with powder gangers and the Legion. Troops cost taxes and training and NCR is a domocracy so they can't just force people to go to war without pay. Legion can. They can kidnap you in the middle of the night kill your family, enslave your wife and kids and force you to be canon fodder.

When the legion has moved into your area it might be time to get out. If still stickin' around it's kinda your own fault.

» Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:15 am

Funny, you mentioning Nipton against the Legion, yet mentioning Bittersprings directly before. Nipton deserved what it got. Bittersprings did not.

Bittersprings was a mistake "The Fog of War." Nipton was cold brutal murder. If legion just lined them up and shot them thats making an example. Buring people alive while kids watch is twisted sick evil.

» Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:04 pm

Bittersprings was a mistake "The Fog of War." Nipton was cold brutal murder. If legion just lined them up and shot them thats making an example. Buring people alive while kids watch is twisted sick evil.

When it comes to NCR, I'm not buying that mistake manure. Burning people alive? Maybe you shouldn't have participated in the lottery then. While kids are watching? Oh please.

» Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:48 pm

Bittersprings was a mistake "The Fog of War." Nipton was cold brutal murder. If legion just lined them up and shot them thats making an example. Buring people alive while kids watch is twisted sick evil.

Sick evil? Oh come now. It was a message. What does it matter if the scum in the town were burnt or crucified? The Legion were sending a clear message to the NCR, and taking out a town full of people who would simply walk out if they weren't killed and resume enjoying their pointless murder of innocents. Get off your high horse, this is post-apocalyptic America, not present day.

And Bittersprings mistake? Please.

» Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:33 pm

I don't think they killed kids in Nipton where as in BitterSprings they did. Also the Legion actually is based on the Roman Legions not the Empire and thats why they are so extreme.

» Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:28 pm

exactly thats the problem i have with there so savage and uncivilized i wouldnt even know what the hell they would do to the dam after they would capture it.

They'd force what NCR Engineers they managed to take alive to run it for them while cutting power to the NCR. When it inevitably breaks because they Legion doesn't have the manufacturing base to maintain it....even House would need NCR maintenance support...the slave engineers would be crucified for failure and the Dam would just become a fancy footbridge for the Legion and it's messengers. If the Legion eventually overcame the NCR there is a outside chance they could get it running again depending how much can be salvaged from the now defunct NCR's industrial base, but that's years away from the NV game timeline.

» Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:43 am

snip

So families and kids are scum? Nipton had more then just grown men living there. Bitter Springs you have every right to believe it was not a mistake. I believe it was.

» Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:25 pm

NCR does not go in shooting. They do have laws and order just not so much order in the Mojave. They do like to talk first. Yes there are black marks like Bittersprings but thats not the norm.

Are you kidding?

They didn't even tell the people fleeing Bittersprings to stop or surrender, they just shot them down; in fact they didn't even try to negiotiate with The Great Khans.

So families and kids are scum? Nipton had more then just grown men living there. Bitter Springs you have every right to believe it was not a mistake. I believe it was.

They killed the Men, hokers and Drug Dealers.

The Women who didn't resist where enslaved, along with the children.

» Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:05 pm

Are you kidding?

They didn't even tell the people fleeing Bittersprings to stop or surrender, they just shot them down; in fact they didn't even try to negiotiate with The Great Khans.

Did you even do Boones quest, it was snipers that shot the fleein Khans, he was one of them, he explains that they radiod the situation, but one freaked out commander having a panic, ordered them to shoot.

» Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:50 pm

Did you even do Boones quest, it was snipers that shot the fleein Khans, he was one of them, he explains that they radiod the situation, but one freaked out commander having a panic, ordered them to shoot.

The Commander never 'freaked' out.

They where told to keep shooting until they ran out of ammo, even though he was getting multipule reports of Wounded, Elderly, Women and Children.

» Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:49 am

Are you kidding?

They didn't even tell the people fleeing Bittersprings to stop or surrender, they just shot them down; in fact they didn't even try to negiotiate with The Great Khans.

Bitter Spring is not the norm. One example does not change everything else. "Fog of War" Bad things happen. Every War is going to see people killed by mistake.

NCR is under alot of pressure in the Mojave. After Bitter Spring the Papa Khan was not open to talking with NCR but others were. NCR has the Legion at their door, powder gangers running loose and Mr.House bleeding them dry of caps. They are one edge. Things go wrong when on the edge.

» Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:12 am

They killed the Men, hokers and Drug Dealers.

The Women who didn't resist where enslaved, along with the children.

So the women and children were enslaved because they were scum? Some how children had it coming?

» Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:06 pm

Bitter Spring is not the norm. One example does not change everything else. "Fog of War" Bad things happen. Every War is going to see people killed by mistake.

NCR is under alot of pressure in the Mojave. After Bitter Spring the Papa Khan was not open to talking with NCR but others were. NCR has the Legion at their door, powder gangers running loose. They are one edge. Things go wrong when on the edge.

Bitter Springs happened before Legion and The Powder Gangers.

They're wasn't a 'Fog of War'; the 1st Recon and their Commanders knew what was going on and they still continued to fire.

So the women and children were enslaved because they were scum? Some how children had it coming?

The Women and Children where enslaved because they woulnd't get any help from the NCR, they'd get shipped off to some Refugee Camp to starve to death.

I'd say that The Legion did those kids a favor.

» Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:04 pm

So families and kids are scum? Nipton had more then just grown men living there. Bitter Springs you have every right to believe it was not a mistake. I believe it was.

Families and kids?

Spoiler

"Before Vulpes razed the town to the ground, it was populated by gamblers, thieves, and prosttutes."

Does that sound like a place you'd raise children, let alone a family? Seriously, the whole family and kids thing is nothing more than grasping at straws. As pointed out, the Legion doesn't kill children or potential slaves.

» Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:08 pm

Bitter Springs happened before Legion and The Powder Gangers.

They're wasn't a 'Fog of War'; the 1st Recon and their Commanders knew what was going on and they still continued to fire.

Others that were there say it was a mistake. Even so its not the norm. NCR did bad a Bitter Springs but the Legion were going to wipe them out as a tribe. Kill the men and enslave the women and children.

» Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:51 am

The Commander never 'freaked' out.

They where told to keep shooting until they ran out of ammo, even though he was getting multipule reports of Wounded, Elderly, Women and Children.

Papa Khan states that the Great Khans had been flaunting the NCR's demands, carrying out raids under the assumption that NCR vows to retaliate were simply bluffs. Tensions rose higher, and eventually the NCR tracked what they believed was a large raiding party back to Bitter Springs. Having been harassed continuously by the Khans, the NCR troops did not expect Bitter Springs to be anything but a war camp. Fueled by anger and frustration, goaded by the Great Khan's audacity, and lacking appropriate orders, the NCR's 1st Recon opened fire on what they were told were retreating Khan troops.

» Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:40 pm

Others that were there say it was a mistake. Even so its not the norm. NCR did bad a Bitter Springs but the Legion were going to wipe them out as a tribe. Kill the men and enslave the women and children.

The People that where there said it was a Mistake attacking Bitter Springs in general, not shooting the Civillians. There was hardly any resistance there.

And Chance's recount of the Battle says that the NCR ran into the town and started shooting everyone.

» Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:24 pm

Families and kids?

Spoiler

"Before Vulpes razed the town to the ground, it was populated by gamblers, thieves, and prosttutes."

Does that sound like a place you'd raise children, let alone a family? Seriously, the whole family and kids thing is nothing more than grasping at straws. As pointed out, the Legion doesn't kill children or potential slaves.

Again we are taking Vulpes word on that. Second every town is going to have women and children even if its full of gambling and drugs. Just look at every major citys "slums." Las Vegas today is full of six and drugs yet kids and women live there. New Reno is full of kids. So is the Den.

» Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:13 pm

The People that where there said it was a Mistake attacking Bitter Springs in general, not shooting the Civillians. There was hardly any resistance there.

And Chance's recount of the Battle says that the NCR ran into the town and started shooting everyone.

Yeah, but in All Roads, they road in on horses.

» Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:15 pm

Again we are taking Vulpes word on that....

Did you even bother to read the Mayor's Terminal?

» Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:38 pm

Again we are taking Vulpes word on that. Second every town is going to have women and children even if its full of gambling and drugs. Just look at every major citys "slums." Las Vegas today is full of six and drugs yet kids and women live there. New Reno is full of kids. So is the Den.

And Ghost and the mayor's terminal if that is to be believed. Once again, straw grasping. Las Vegas? *facedesk*

» Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:52 am

The People that where there said it was a Mistake attacking Bitter Springs in general, not shooting the Civillians. There was hardly any resistance there.

And Chance's recount of the Battle says that the NCR ran into the town and started shooting everyone.

NCR does not enslave people, let alone women and children. Legion does. NCR made a mistake or one bad leader attacked Bitter Springs. Legion were going to kill very last Great Khan and Enslave the women and kids. So whats worse?

» Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:46 am

Others that were there say it was a mistake. Even so its not the norm. NCR did bad a Bitter Springs but the Legion were going to wipe them out as a tribe. Kill the men and enslave the women and children.

the only great khans that were killed were the sick and elderly. everyone else was incorporated into the legion under one banner

» Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:47 am

NCR does not enslave people, let alone women and children. Legion does. NCR made a mistake or one bad leader attacked Bitter Springs. Legion were going to kill very last Great Khan and Enslave the women and kids. So whats worse?

NCR has had more than one bad Military leader and I'd rather have people enslaved than starve to death from taxes.