After four of these Legion vs NCR "debates" its bound to fall apart. Pretty much why the Mods lock threads after 200.

You're right, debate has left the building.

It was pointless in the first place. I mean, most debates are pointless because nobody ever really changes their views, but this debate was even more pointless as it was pretty much based on unknown knowledge: what the Legion would do if they were no longer in a war with the NCR. Debating is still fun though...until people like epicness and that ocams razor (or however it's spelled) come along, take it a tad to serious and f'ck the topic, making it no longer fun.

Speaking of, apart from Vulpes Inculta.
Am I the only one that thinks for a man of learning, he is not really up to scratch on the ol' bone box rattling.
Caesar himself seems more like sailor than a diplomat ( Pop Eye the legionman.. do do. )

Kimballs and his crew are silver tongued backstabbers as well, but it's delivered with a silver spoon.

If an unbiased wastelander looking up at at two armies, which would sound sweeter if offers were made.

While I haven't been on the Beth forums in forever, and I have no intention of posting regularly after this, I was particularly enticed by this topic because it is one of so many moral implications.

From my point in the game, I stand by the NCR completely. They represent an honest effort to restore order to the wasteland, and while it is arguable that Caesar's Legion plans to do the same, their tactics are barbaric and disgusting. I'm very much a sort of "ends justifies the means" kind of person but the Legion's ends aren't at all better than what they are currently doing. In my book, burning towns to the ground and crucifying/beheading/torching their occupants while making a "game" out of it is despicable, not to mention the slavery and misogyny. In addition, what I see from NCR generic NPC dialogue is situational awareness, with Legion I see complete brainwashed support in what they do (If I recall correctly) and I don't really fly with that. For reference, though, I have not finished the game yet.

But I have no regrets of introducing Caesar to my friend, ARCHIMEDES II.

I think a lot of the legion NCPs are very good when it comes to justifying their means. A thing that really stand out to me Canyon Runner's stance of slavery, it certainly made me think. There's also the ever awesome Legate Lanius. I honestly can't see how you can talk to him and not go "Damn, I should have joined those guy instead!".

An honest effort? The NCR is debased and corrupt, only out to svck the Mojave dry of its resources. You know what the Legion achieved the NCR never did? Order and civilization.
Town burning? What exactly have they burned down? Nipton? A place filled with the absolute scum of the Mojave and a bastard of a mayor? Please.

EDIT- I think the topic is safe now, guys!

and so it begins....again

Going by my own morals, it's rather hard to justify supporting the Legion. Caesar would be the main draw but if you really step back and take a look a it, you see that he is a loon. An intelligent one, but a loon nonetheless. Just the emulation of the roman empire should tell you something. He is also inconsistent in his views on technology and also makes some downright stupid decisions. Sending the courier down to fetch the platinum chip? Not even checking whether the courier did the job or not? Come on... And then there is the fact that Lanius is appointed as a successor. Seriously, Lanius of all people?
And that's not even touching on some of the base issues with the Legion, such as the low opinion of females, the slavery in general and the extremely barbaric ways they act. Yes, Nipton had bad people in it. That does not exactly justify the game the Legion plays there. Just razing the town is more than enough, but the lottery just brings things more over-the-top.

Now, that's not saying that I don't find Caesar an interesting character in the in-game context. I think it *is* an interesting choice that he is as mad as he is, and it provides a good option for more extreme character types (which I'm playing at the moment actually). But judging from my own views and morals? Yeah, the Legion doesn't exactly feel stable. The NCR has a lots of problems (which every government does) and are hardly saints but they'd be a far better alternative than the Legion.

I wouldn't really call him a loon.... although even the most die-hard Legion supporter will admit he doesn't always make the best decisions.

if anyone would be a successor for caesar it should be lucius

NCR has United the West. They have laws and order.

Legion have burned Nipton and we only have the Legions word that it was full of scum. Read some other posts. Legion don't keep their word when they make deals like they did with the Khans. They destroy every tribe they take over, they enslave the women, turn children into future soldiers and kill the men. Sure they bring order but thats a high cost. Their Justice is based on what ever mood they are in at the time.

Legion's Justice is always consistant for offenses, the NCR's isn't.

Also, Legion united all of Arizona and made it actually peaceful.

Wooooooo spam...

And the legion has united Arizona and several other states. Wait and the best part, in less time.
No its not, by breaking up the tribes, and diluting them, they make them legion, they unite them under one banner. Besideslook at some tribes e.g Omertas, are they worth keeping ?
As for slavery, the legion is huge. They started with a small tribe. In caesers lifetime. Meaning some of those slaves must have been promoted because you cant wait for another generation because caeser is still alive, and started with only a small group.
Also thier justice is true to the romans, the lottery was thier decimation, decimation was Roman soldiers punished, even if it wasnt thier fault. If something happened, everyone lined up, and they killed every 10th man, that way people will work harder and force eachother to work harder, you arent going to let the other guy take it easy, because you could be that 10t man.
Its not all like rome though, I dont remember them banning alcohol, and I thought they treated women as more tha livestock, but w/e.

Felt the same about "in game" caesar.
Good in concept faulty as formaldehyde in implementation.

That could be said of the legion in NV as a whole.
It's another old topic point, but if they had just even another reason other than "conquer ( conga ) we must".. points finger at dam.
They would seem more drawn in character.
We're told that NV is to be the jewel in the crown, but if the Legion is so well off at home why would he need just the city of sin?
The river, its water I could understand, the land to grow stuff, aqua ducts and canols...
As he is / they are, there are no points other than war, war never changes.
But without no change in how it's waged or for why.

NCR protects POWs and have rules not to hurt them. Yes there is the odd bad officer but NCRs Justices is not "killl them all and let good sort them out." Which is the Legions.

Arizona is peaceful if you are a women hating slave master. We have not seen or even heard that Caesar is building. We know things are good for traders (slave traders) but we don't know what the average town is like. We have seen NCR towns were they have police and order.


@ this isnt my name. Yes Caesar has taken over alot of Land alot faster then NCR. This is because Legion goes in an kills. NCR tries to talk. Vault City, NCR talked for along time. Then they hired Mercs to cause trouble but not to take the city. Deal was they scare Vault City enough and get them to side with NCR. The Strip NCR can take easy but they don't. They want to do it with words. Mr.House just does not want to listen.

The majority are not liberals, our last governor was a republican, the central valley is actually very conservative and it is a large part of Cali, learn more about your state.

So you're admitting that you don't know what a peaceful Legion town is like, yet you are also assuming it is as bad as the Legion war camps? Contradiction.

Ha, so true.

Did you not read the mayors diary?

About Nipton. The mayor was a POS through and through, and its "citizens"? Tell me, what is the first thing you see when you enter Nipton? Powder Gangers. As Vulpes pointed out, it was a town of [censored]s; willing to take anybody in as long as they payed. And when Vulpes described the whole thing, no one in Nipton seemed to care about each other, just winning the lottery....Even when their loved ones were dragged away to be killed.

Hell, even Ghost at the Mojave Outpost would tell you that Nipton is an awful place.

@this isn't my name- during the Iliad they had concubines while they were battling and their wives usually were the power in the household so the legion would still make sense in that respect.

I have said many times that we don't know. So you did not catch me putting my foot im my mouth. As someone on here has said we are now debating on info we don't know. I am making my case on what we do know. What we do know is that the Legion don't keep deals. They enslave women and treat them as live stock.

NCR does not go in shooting. They do have laws and order just not so much order in the Mojave. They do like to talk first. Yes there are black marks like Bittersprings but thats not the norm.

Yes Nipton was home of some bad people but thats no reason to go in an kill everyone.

People say Caesar wants to rebuild Rome. Benito Mussolini also wanted to do just that.

@styles-I believe (especially in lawlessness) to make examples of people. The powder gangers were the ncrs creation and they have not done anything, now the legion has no fear of the powder gangers attacking them at least.

Funny, you mentioning Nipton against the Legion, yet mentioning Bittersprings directly before. Nipton deserved what it got. Bittersprings did not.