Okie pointed it out so I wont repeat him


Implying the Legion doesnt?


See quote 2.

Yeah because the ncr dosent do that at all.
Nope they didnt enslave vault city, then start a pointless war for more resources, becuase cali wasnt enough, no they needed moar.

Here is the difference between the legion and the NCR.

Transparency. The legion maeks it sgoals and its motives damn clear, the ncr will use politics, and "democracy" to hide what itreally is, allowing it to work with less criticism.

Tell me how was vault city any differnt to the legion slavery ?
How was legion any different to the ncr destroying tribes ?

And are the legion slaves any worse than those on the bottom of the ncr, who are taxed havily and have little, atleast the legion can feed its people. Oh and protect them. You can clearly see where those tas are going with ncr, they send another untrained soldier to die for a greedy cause. But that dosent matter, because those who can vote arent effected. The only real difference from transparancy is the legion is compitent.

I ment to say Legion.

So let me get this right. When Legion to kills people that they see as scum its a good thing but when NCR kills people that already had a trail, broke out of prison and killed citizens of NCR thats bad?

They send hit squads after you when you are clearly the worst person on their list like the Fiend leaders.

Everyone Kills in Fallout an I am not saying NCR are the white knights of the Wasteland.

Understandable mistake. Note the difference however. Guys at Vault 19 surrendered and were treated well. Guys at NCRCF openly fought against the NCR when they came to retake the prison. It's hard to arrest guys when they're throwing dynamite at you.

Yes.

I mixed the two up, see what I quoted him with.



Not denying that they don't, but saying that the Legion is evil because they try to kill you while the NCR does the same thing is odd, to say the least.


See what he originally posted....



And @Okie

True, but you can't deny the fact that they shot all the Prisoners that surrendered.

I know what you mean Nye, but like I said, I'm obstentivelly Neutral in this debate when I'm not defending House, and he rarely comes up in this debate. Honestly, I'm sided with Raul in feelings, the Legion is brutal, but under Caesar he has introduced an unforgiving way of law in Arizona and the Colorados, and the NCR tries, but they have their good points and bad.

But like I said, I like House more than NCR or Legion, so my bias doesnt lean to either side on the debate.

I prefer the Independent Faction the most, never finished a House playthrough...


...Strikes me as a lunatic...

My rely to something from the last thread...



I find it amusing how you blather about "war camps" and ignore the fact all of this is going on under the very eyes of thier Sovereign...who is more than happy to tell you what you've seen in Nipton and elsewhere meets his full approval. What you see in the "war camps" is precisely the way the CL plans to run the Mojave and is running the rest of thier Empire. Caesar has to maintain the terror until doing things his way becomes a habit and there are only a few dissenters who can be dealt with surgically by the Frumentarii....it'll take a generation or more for people to forget thier old ways. Of course, those who profit from the terror....the slavemasters who profit from selling captives and are used to having thier pick of females to "break in" won't like that and may become to a future Caesar what the Brahmin Barons are to Kimball now...



The NCR has functioning railroads and can repair heavy mining equipment and refurbish derelict factories, CL cannot even repair a howitzer or scav a auto-doc...Of course the Legion can operate and maintain a hydroelectric dam! Perhaps you blacked that mission from Lucius to get parts for that howitzer for them out, like all you CL lovers do with Caesar's endorsemant of cannibalism, because it clashes with your delusions. The NCR is the only entity in the area possessing the heavy industrial base necessary to keep the Dam operational...House has a small steel mill (New Vegas Steel), his goal is to establish such a capacity if given enough time, but even he will have to get NCR assistance by hook or crook to do it. All we've seen of Legion industrial might is the ability to manufacture tents and fashion armor on a piecework basis...Lanius's helmet is a nice piece of work that shows they have some metalworkers with real ability and even artistic talent but they don't even make proper armor for Legionnaires, they just adapt old sporting equipment. And look at thier weapons...the gladius sword is a excellent melee weapon but most Legionnaires, even those in the camp of it's ruler and his heir, are using weapons adapted from lawn mower blades. They cannot even manufacture enough proper swords to outfit thier main field army. The best they seem to be able to do is light industry and textiles, with the ability to manufacture metal hand weapons and armor on a craftwork basis. It's impressive considering what Caesar had to work with in the beginning, but not nearly enough for what we are talking about.....keeping one of the Wonders of the Industrial Age functioning. Meanwhile the NCR has spent the past half century re-establishing a heavy industrial base that has proven capable of overhauling and restoring Hoover Dam to function.




So? If you strike a deal it's easy to convince the OIC to ignore his orders in light of new circumstances and honor the deal you made....think a Decanus would do the same if his Centurion had commanded he attack and kill the Khans? I think....no.



If it had been the Legion instead of NCR, all surviving advlts that didn't escape would have been crucified along the nearest road. Since Khan women are full members and would have fought they probably wouldn't have been retained for sale as usual and crucified with the rest. Even Bitter Root would have been put to death as he was too old for the indoctrination as a Legionnaire. The end slide would not apply in this case as the Khans raiding Legion settlements and killing Legion subjects would make them outlaws and there is only one penalty for that....extermination. A member of the Legion looking at the NCR hand-wringing over Bitter Springs would be amazed and mystified, and probably think it cowardly that not only did they spare most of the Khans, they actually felt guilty about the ones they had killed.

NCR does not Enslave Vault City. Vault City ends up being tricked into asking for help and NCR ends up just taking over. As you might recall Vault City had slaves. NCR would have let those people go. We don't know Who started the War Between NCR or the Legion. Both sides were expanding towards Mojave till they met up. NCR was not at war till they met up with the Legion.

'Vault City ends up being tricked into asking for help and the NCR ends up taking over'

What's the diffrence between that and the Legion wiping out Tribes Identity?

Difference is Its Bloodless. NCR does not go in and enslave and kill the population. The people still get to live their in peace just no longer have slaves and pay taxes to NCR. Remember NCR does not resort to tricking them till after they tried many times to talk with Vault City.

No they don't. Slavery is not legal in the NCR and the NCR Rangers were actively involved in stamping out slavery even outside the NCR's borders.



No they didn't. They coerced them into becoming citizens of the NCR via staged raider attacks. No one was enslaved. If you can't understand the difference between being coerced into becoming a citizen and being enslaved I can't help you further.



How is it pointless? The Dam is a major asset. If you're saying the war in the Mojave is being fought for selfish reasons then I'd agree with you. But everyone is fighting the war in the Mojave for selfish reasons. I am not defending the NCR as a benevolent, morally perfect government out to help everyone out of the goodness of their own hearts. They do many things that are morally wrong and often downright evil. Compared to the Legion however, they come off like saints. That's the difference int his debate.



Or to put it another way the NCR aspires to be a liberal democracy and frequently falls short while the Legion embraces and runs with sadistically evil authoritarianism. They get no points for being honest about how evil they are.



If I force a guy at gunpoint to become a US citizen is it the same as forcing a guy at gunpoint to become my personal slave?



What evidence do we have the NCR destroys tribes? New Arroyo still seems to exist. If you mean the Khans:

1. The Khans haven't been destroyed and aren't eradicated in ANY NCR ending. Contrast the Legion ending where their society is completely extinguished.
2. The Khans were hostile to the NCR. It's not like the NCR just started attacking them out of spite or to civilize them.



Yes they are because they're slaves. They don't even theoretically have rights.



The NCR can protect it's citizens in California just fine. They can't protect the Mojave because Caesar's Legion is camped on the other side of the Colorado draining all their resources. Take Caesar's Legion out of the equation and the Mojave becomes a much better place under the NCR.

lololol. you can't possibly argue Lgion is better for the mojave.

Slavery = Bad
Crucifying = bad
sixism = bad and counter-productive
Having top Officers using only melee weapons = stupid
trying to stop independant thinking ("Legionairres are trained to not think for themselves, to have conflict removed from the mind") = bad
Brainwahing (they do it to the kids) = bad

NCR does none of those things.

Don't even argue that the Legion would make things "safer". Remember these words:

"Those who trade freedom (NCR) for protection (Legion) deserve neither".

What prisoners that surrendered? The Vault 19 guys surrendered and were just reincorporated into the penal system. The NCRCF guys fought back. The Powder Gangers facing summary execution are convicts who are fleeing not surrendering.

@Tiberius- just because caesar knows what's happening in nv doesn't mean everywhere is like that. Bush knew about Iraq but our country isn't like Iraq, that argument doesn't make sense. He was just agreeing with me that until we see what their cities look like, we Wong believe they are evil incarnate. That's all I care about, people calling them evil, they aren't, close to being black but still grey.

The only remotely 'lunatic' he asks of you is to

which even then is justified when you ask why he wants that done, sighting that they would go to war with him because he has the better tech than they. Even Yes-Man wants you to do it, this is indicated when he makes a grump should you decline to do it. Yes-Man's end game dialogue scares me more.

Difference is also the NCR doesn't brutally stamp out Vault City's culture and impose their own at gunpoint (beyond doing horrid things like abolishing slavery) by killing their leaders, taking their children away to be indoctrinated in NCR's culture, and enslaving most of the remaining population. Bit of a difference there.

lololol. you can't possibly argue Lgion is better for the mojave.

Slavery = Bad
Crucifying = bad
sixism = bad and counter-productive
Having top Officers using only melee weapons = stupid
trying to stop independant thinking ("Legionairres are trained to not think for themselves, to have conflict removed from the mind") = bad
Brainwahing (they do it to the kids) = bad

NCR does none of those things.

Don't even argue that the Legion would make things "safer". Remember these words:

"Those who trade freedom (NCR) for protection (Legion) deserve neither".

Reposting the exact same post twice won't make your post anymore credible.

Especially when it's a ridiculous post. We've been over that and doing somethings does not make you evil.

top officers arent forced to use melee weapons, they choose too.
and not all of them use melee weapons, some of them use cowboy repeaters and more

yeah isn't it horrible how NCR units the wasteland without resorting to butchuring and enslaving?

Wait what? Sorry but slavery is evil. Forced sixual intercourse is evil. Slaughtering refugees is evil. Torturing people is evil. Brainwashing children is evil.

Caesar sees the NCR as the "Great Enemy" whose defeat will make him a true historical figure. He wants New Vegas for his "New Rome", the NCR will serve as his Carthage...the enemy whose defeat will establish CL as a true Empire and the largest power West of the Mississippi. This he tells you himself. Once he has control of the NCR's industrial base and can outfit his armies properly....no doubt the expansion will truly begin.

Surprisingly enough, Caesar actually admires Kimball and thinks the only real mistake he made was to enter politics instead of overthrowing the State and making himself Dictator. He hints that if Kimball had done this he wouldn't be risking conflict with the NCR now....probably because Kimball could bring all the NCR's strength to bear on him long before he is strong enough to survive it.

No, it just makes you THE WORST CHOICE. If there was a vote by the wastelanders of who they wanted to run the Mojave between the Legion and the NCR, I'm pretty sure NCR would win.