I do not worry about less skills, as they can be countered by more significant and meaningful perks.

For instance in Conjuration skill we can have different perks like "Necromancy", "Invoke", "Channeling", and the like which would differentiate between different aspects of conjuration and would be perquisite to learning different spells of Conjuration skill.

The same can be done for other skills as well, and it can result in a hierarchy of skills perks that depend on each other and their base skills, that define our character, and this way attributes loose their importance as well, unless we want to define our character's aptness on some skills because of the attributes of their races.

This could be good or bad..

I'm reserving judgement until I learn more.

"perks" are supposed to be very useful/powerful. So leveling has that bonus. But I have a similar head scratching going on with the whole character development issue. Need more info.

Beth, need a game tester?





Sounds good.

You're wrong. Attributes never lose their importance. It doesn't matter how skilled you're in the use of a longsword: if you're a weakling, you won't do so much damage as one that is skilled and is strong. Also, it doesn't matter how much you know about Conjuration: if you're stupid, that won't work either.

Frankly, I don't see any excuse to get rid of attributes. The new system better be GOOD if that's true.

WHAT? No attributes?? Confirmed??

18 skills is 5 more than Fallout 3 so that doesn't matter.

But NO ATTRIBUTES? WHAT?

18 skills is 18 more than Super Mario Bros.

See, some positive ways of thinking of it!

(sarcasm in your post obviously)

What about the Attributes? My dear luck? My speedness? My.. My.. Willpower?

I know it sounds bad, but currently attributes define your aptness in gaining skills, or they define your development rate on their related skills, and also affect in-game formulas, but those formulas were in parallel with actual skills.

For instance the damage dealt by a sword were calculated by both Blade skill and Strength and Luck attributes, and your success with a lock-pick was defined by your Security skill as well as your agility and luck, but it can boil down to just Blade skill and Security skill or their equivalents.

At any point that a check was performed on any attribute, it can be performed on the related skill, so perks can be dependent on skill only, and your action results can depend on skills as well, and the added parameter, which is "Perk".

So Skills and Perks can affect those formulas, instead of Skills and Attributes.

Also on the picture with the skills on it there aren't attributes anywhere. So it seems likely.

But Perks are mostly situational. E.G: Gaining a perk that allows you to ignore enemies' helmet when you headshot them with an arrow would only work with NPC's wearing helmets. Attributes work on every enemy, regardless of what they're, or what they wear.

Besides, there were also Perks in Oblivion (when you reached 25-50-75 of a skill, remember?) and it had Attributes as well. So Skyrim is even more simple in that aspect.

I still don't know if I like or dislike that system, and won't know until I play Skyrim...but for now I really don't like it.

So that's 3 'perks' in total for all melee weapons together, and 3 for the marksman skill. As far as I know those were all for combat related perks in Oblivion.

...but they were Perks anyway

My suggestion is: Lets wait and see!

First of all, we really don't know for sure, if the attributes are eliminated or not.

But in case they are, I have been thinking about this very aspect of game, i.e. leveling for quite a long time, and developed some really radical systems for it in my mind, and some traditional ones as well, and in some systems, I developed themes with no attributes at all, or only for shaping your character's aptness in developing skills and gaining perks, and they seemed sound enough.

And I have faith in Bethesda and from what I can learn about Skyrim, I'm really excited about it and it's RPG elements.

So let's wait and see.

They were there for every skill, like the one that made heavy armour not weigh anything (WTF?! Thats the worst one ever). Or that made it so repair hammers didn't break, or let you jump on the water.

I'm a little sceptical if I'm honest. As a player who came in at Morrowind I appreciate the balance between immersion and RPG depth. While I lied Oblivion it certainly fell short compared to Morrowind in many areas, whilst improving a couple of things. Now I'm reading that we won't have Classes (I mean, WTF?). They're introducing Perks?

Don't get me wrong, some of the things they are announcing are great news. How AI is supposed to work, the way quests are given and located, the engine itself, etc. I'm just extremely worried that this is going to feel like the Fallout levelling in TES. I really hope there's something they're not telling us, and there is a lot more depth with the Perks and skills (maybe sub-trees and stuff), then I could really get on board with the idea. But if it's the same old straight levelling with less skills I'll be extremely disappointed with this aspect of the game (I have no doubts I'm still going to love Skyrim overall though).

lmao

play a mage in oblivion without intelligence, see how far you get.

lmao

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1107940-perks-they-can-make-each-play-through-a-unique-experience can be implemented in a lot of different aspects of the game, and not just for skills, like Item perks that add new level of magnitude to the uniqueness of some items and racial perks that can keep a race unique even to higher levels, and so on...

Skill perks do not need to become available in each 25 levels, and some can become available whenever the developers seem to think more appropriate for them, like in skill level of 40, 60 and so on...

Some can depend of other perks, so we can have a perk hierarchy that encourages us to specialize in some perk branches.

Honestly, I'm hoping they just made attribute gain passive, sort of like GCD for Morrowind. They're there, but you no longer have to aim for x5/x5/x5 every level.

As far as removing skills..I'm both for and against it. If it's just the passive stuff that screwed the level system, fine. But really, they could have just added a "Passive Skill" category that would grow and contribute to attribute growth, but not level. Things like Athletics, Acrobatics, armor skills, etc.

Not sure why thats directed at me, I was just saying they were there for more than weapons.

I fear that they put all the armors in one armor skill. hmy:

I have faith in them, too. Where I don't have faith on is in 13-year old console whiners with simplistic minds.

As opposed to PC oriented forum whiners that want the game so convoluted (not complex, there's a difference!) you'd need a tabletop RPG-styled Player's Handbook to figure it out? (Stereotyping is fun, isn't it?)

I think most of the people you mention want the game to be more complex and realistic, not more burdening and tedious as you suggest

I would be all for that... mind you I play table-top RPGs

Having to pick skills that are actually related to thievery for your thief ruins your immershun?

lol....



They didn't do much for you maybe. I'd take 100 acrobatics or athletics over 100 blade any day. warriors were awful at higher levels in oblivion. It was magic (enchanting) that kept them competitive. Since i usually played a mage being able to move faster or jump to safe spots was a lot more important than the minuscule damage increase you get from raising blade. Your entire complaint about Oblivion is pure nonsense anyway. Weapon skills rise very fast through regular use. Much faster than acrobatics/athletics actually. There was nothing preventing you from raising your blade, athletics and acrobatics skills. As a matter of fact enchanting a weapon will give you way more damage than getting its respective skill to 100.



I agree. They should have every character start with maximum skills and attributes so you can experience all the AWESHUM COOL STUFF from the start without having to make any choices or sacrifices or put a single minute of work into raising any of them.



Agreed completely, it makes no freakin sense for a weedy little elff to carry less than a beefy nord behemoth. What's with this realism ruining mah immershun bethesda??!?!



You actually picked a birth sign that boosted attributes? LMAO



You want to raise your blade skill, even though you don't actually use it because you use a bow? What?



I understand your point. Unfortunately, it's against forum rules to post what I really think of you so I'll just leave it at this:

Oblivion had a console you could use to raise any and all attributes and skills to 100. It also had simple mods that allowed you to get +5 modifiers at level-up very easily. I used them both when I wanted to avoid endless grinding. So feel free to use the console to get all the skills you want and stop asking the developers to ruin the game by turning it into a digital Barney the Dinosaur.