Honestly, it's 3 less skills people, I don't care about Acrobatics or Running! As a Thief type character I always hated having to pick Acrobatics because it blocked off some other more immersive interesting skills such as illusion or Alteration or even a Blade skills since I always chose marksmen. Then even if I chose blade I couldn't use blunt very well but as a thief/thug/assassin it makes sense thus your sacrificing another fun skill. Hindering other cool choices because of skills that well, in truth really didn't do much is annoying. It seems like Bethesda did the right thing. Personally, I always thought that the attributes hindered character growth and GREATLY limited dungeon delving experience. I hated the fact that if I had to constantly boost my strength as thief variant to get the most out of the experience. A bosmer could only carry 150 at start vs the nord which carried 250. THUS, if you wanted to make a thief that was good at dungeon delving and loot carrying you would have to sacrifice a cool birthsign to get perks to strength or valuable time using a skills such as blade to get stronger when you really use a bow! I am so happy they got rid of attributes because they really hindered the experience as somebody who wasn't playing a big honking nord or orc. I hope people understand my point.


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edit, I wish a mod would fix attributes : / wow fail typo is fail

I agree with you, but I still hope that if attributes are really gone, they will come up with a satisfying way to replace them. After all, it does make sense for a Nord to be able to carry more then a bosmer, doesn't it?

Agreed, and I bet they will work that out with racial perks or each race has a base carrying capacity based on their strength but not totally reliant on. I mean, it makes sense that a Nord is stronger than a Bosmer but that shouldn't hinder the over all experience of loot collecting. Dungeons and Dragons had a pretty good system for loot collecting even as a table top you never felt over whelmed because it was based on strength but never completely reliant on it.

The 3 less skills is what I'm on the fence about currently. It just depends on how it's implemented and what each skill has associated with it.

Now, as for attributes removed from the equation, I'm very peeved about this. Attributes are very much part of the RPG aspect of TES. The system is the very backbone of the last 3 Elder Scrolls games, and to remove the system completely instead of fixing some minor flaws is just lazy. Attributes allow for better customization and make sense as both a gameplay mechanic and a call back to realism. By removing it, all your're doing is streamlining everything and in most cases, you don't want that in an RPG. RPGs are better when they have more choices and customization, not less.

To me, a TES without attributes is like Fallout without S.P.E.C.I.A.L. It just doesn't make sense, or sounds like it would work at all.

Funny thing is, if this aspect is well received in Skyrim, this may just very well happen in Fallout 4.

What I understand, they have moved closer to FO's skillsystem with perks and all. That's perfectly fine for me.

Your to critical, it's not about the attributes it's about the immersion and imo the attributes hinder the immersion. It's part of the reason why I just like running around on maps such as hunters life cause it's such an amazing spectacle to look at. If you want to see a game that goes over board with pen and paper check out http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/rpg/series.php?qsSeries=51 the original used calc, and this version some. Also, IT'S 3 SKILLS, I mean, be reasonable sir! Those skills didn't do much for the game, and you know it...


@Ranchester, yup more or less.

Were is the info about "No attributes" in the game?

I think that moving from 21 skills to 18, means moving from 7 attributes to 6.

That's a simple mathematics, and hopefully luck is gone as well. Now flame me.

no reason to I'll let this friendly Icon do it for me

:flamethrower:

I'm not sure were they said they were moving them from 7, to 6 everybody has been saying they eliminated them. I don't actually have the mag, I doubt I'll get it till next week.

That works for me.

At any rate, the mission statement of TES games doesn't need attributes. Skills yes, attributes no.

Which is why I said I'm "on the fence" about the skills, meaning I don't know what to think of the matter till I get more info.

Also, some of us have different tastes in what we want in an RPG. Some want immersion (like you), and some want it to be a straight up RPG (me). Unfortunately, it's nigh impossible to combine the two, and if you try to focus on one, the other will be left behind.

The closest we got to somewhat of a good mix was Morrowind, as the world was very immersive and the skills actually meant something more than they did in Oblivion.

I don't see too many hardcoe RPGers liking Skyrim, but I see immersionists praising this game like no other. Well, we'll see if that's the case by release anyway.

They could even do it without skills to be honest, just a pick up and use to get good at except for trainers would raise that base level it falls to. If you don't use it over time the skills gradually drops to a base level that your race and trainer determines. Magic would require trainers...

I kinda like it actually... I hope that Mercantile and Speech, and Athletics and Acrobatics merged. Never really understood why they're separated. Mysticism is gone, but that's not such a bad idea.. I think most of the spells from Mysticism is transfered to Illusion. Anyway, I think this will make it possible for you to make a more unique character.

maybe they didn't mention attributes because nothing to major was changed about them? :shrug:

either way I hope we still have attributes

No, I'm pretty sure they eliminated them...they let out a lot of info and I'm sure that attributes would have been part of it. Hopefully I'll get my issue by the 11th.

Its not just that 3 skills have been removed, its that 3 more skills have been removed, seriously what is there to gain by removing skills? Bethesda should be adding skill not taking them away.
Also the problem with the removal of acrobatics and athletics (assuming they are cut) is that now every character will have the same running speed and jumping hight (fallout 3 anyone?), which is especially true if the attributes are also cut.
And i personally dont feel having perks that increase jump hight ar running speed really make up for yet another reduction of skills.

yeah, but imo you still need something to keep track of. You have to be made aware of the PCs skills in some way.

Maybe a compromise system. where you don't just have a skill list and an number next to it. dunno off the top of my head. :spotted owl:

If you have played all the TES games you would have noticed that with each game attributes got less and less useful and in Oblivion they got to the point they were negligible save for Strength, Endurance and Agility. As time passed and the series evolved it became evident that attributes had become obsolete and that they can instead consolidate the attributes into other systems in the game and then replace it with a more immersive system. I am incredible impressed with Skyrim and it looks to be shaping up to be one of the best TES games of all time. Only time will tell, we will see just how good it is in November.



Really? Because I only remember like 3 or 4 skills being removed from the game between Morrowind and Oblivion. The other skills were consolidated into one skill. Enchanting technically wasn't removed from the game, it was just turned into something else. The actual skills that were removed like spears were nothing that affected the game in any capacity and neither will the changes to Skyrim. Either perks or racials/signs will most likely increase the run speed or jump height of your character and there may be even other factors in the game that may increase it also. You just have to be patient and wait for more information.

Words of Wisdom, this man knows! Thank you sir, +1 interwebz to you.




edit:this living god needs to meditate and rest, off to bed for my self and I.


Don't destroy the world while I'm slumbering people!

It actually seems like they mentioned very little info, i'm pretty sure they'd mention if attributes were removed completely as well, just have to wait and see until I can buy it

What I'd like to know more, is how moddable the skill list is. Can we change the skills? Can we change what they apply to, and how strong they are? Can we make the skill list longer or shorter? Stuff like this.

That's not what I recall at all. Most of the attributes in Morrowind and Oblivion were quite useful indeed. Strength and Endurance were near essential if you wanted a warrior type character, Intelligence and Willpower for mages, Speed and Agility for theives, and Personality for either a more "diplomatic" character, or to define how your character is perceived by the world.. They promoted a system where your character had both strengths and weaknesses, thus playing in very well for both pure and mixed classes. You could be a powerful battle mage with ridiculously powered spells and a powerful sword strike to boot, but your constitution could be low, your speed only about average, and you're not perceived to well by the public. All kinds of combinations for role playing could be present, all because of attributes.

The only useless attribute is probably Luck, as it didn't do much at all (well, at least in Oblivion).

If there are no attributes, what controls carryweight? Stamina? I'm guessing there will be a few attributes still (at least I hope). I'm also not too worried (yet) about the "only 18 skills" aspect, as it all depends on how the skills are handled. Although given the levelscaling (I guess this means the loot, too, is leveled) and class selection being labeled as "restrictive" (what the [censored]?) and thus cut out, I doubt there will be much depth given with the skills and (if in) remaining attributes. So far it seems that leveling up is (once again) a curiosity feature. Unless I've missed some enlightening info concerning it.

You know, the more I think about it, the less I'm wanting RPG to just equal numbers.

If Skyrim can implement a system where you can still have distinct and characters, each with their own completely unique skill progression, influenced by what you do rather than what numbers you set, isn't that a good thing?
Compare it to the Pokemon games, aimed at kids, but beneath it all there is a pretty complex leveling system, and it requires a very in depth knowledge to get the absolute maximum stats.
Can't this be the same? Accessible to everyone, but for those who put in the effort, the depth is there?

Probably not a whole lot of that imo. I expect far too many of the skills processes to linked to internal exe game mechanics, rather than content creation and level design. Hence them being hardcoded rather than in the esm. < assuming Bethesda goes moddable again and it still is built in a plugin system. I reckon so as it is a great system for them to use as well. Or there abouts.

Where the hell does it says there won't be attributes? What's the use of leveling up then? Just more HP/Magicka/Stamina?