Something I've been a little curious about lately. The lesser daedra, such as the atronachs, scamps, daedroth, dremora, clannfear, etc. have free will and consciousness? Are they able to go against type and be unique or are they ultimately governed by the same spheres that their patriarch embodies?

It's established that the lesser daedra are varying in intelligence, as is obvious when you compare a Dremora to a Scamp, but are there also varying degrees in autonomy? Do some lesser daedra have consciousness while others are merely a hive mind driven by the will of their lord?

Curious to see what experts say on this.

The lesser ones can still go against their Masters, even if they probably wont survive it.

It has happened before.
The Seducers changed their Masters in SI I believe, haven't played OB for ages now but I believe I remember this from a very old discussion about this.

No, that was battlespire from seducers moving from Nocturnal to Mehrunes Dagon. Mazken seem pretty different, and are only called "Dark Seducers" by idiot mortals

Hmm I see.
But wasn't it something very similar happening in SI?

I'm almost certain that some lesser Daedra changed side during SI.

Perhaps they look like they're bound because going against their masters is a bad idea... so most don't.

Unless another prince has a better offer and is willing to take that daedroth in immediately, kind of like what happened in Battlespire

Well, take the Xivilai, for example. They are prideful and are prone to betraying their master if treated unjustly, or if presented with the knowledge of their neonymic.



You must be referring to the Hungers switching side from Boethiah to Sheogorath.

Ah yes, that's very much correct.
Do you have a link to a book or page about it?

Nice to see another Swede here as well.

I don't believe the daedra are naturally bound to their masters, certainly not as an entire species. While they're probably far less imaginative than the people of Nirn (hence the reason Princes find them far more interesting than the lesser Daedra), I get the impression that the daedra have the leeway to behave in any way they are able to imagine.

Actually, it could be that all lower order beings (be they the mortals of Nirn or lesser daedra) are tied to a greater being, and mortals get their degree of freedom by their tie to the missing god (who isn't there to boss them around), while Daedra are bound, not to whichever particular prince they are in service to, but to Peryite: tasked with the ordering of the lower daedra.

The Dremora come out and say as much, that they serve for the benefit of protection by the strong, and by choice and tradition, in their own writing; and the elemental Atronachs are known to be free agents.

I think the relationship is more of lord and vassal, not some ontological "existing because they are a part of the master's realm".

i always thought daedra were sort of free-lance i mean in the oblivion invasion you got all types of monsters coming, scamps, clannfears, spider daedra etc. I don't think that all these were supposed to serve under Mehrunes, i think there was a book about it too, varieties of daedra i think. Anyway i'm pretty sure that at least the spider daedra don't belong to him, they more likely belong to mephala the web-spinner.

The subject moons may leave their lord's planet:


Come to Mundus!

Some of the Dremora at Battlespire gave a few salient clues that they the ones planning the whole Oblivion crisis. So, they are autonomous.

The oblivion crisis or the simulacrum?

I think the latter, given the context.

I've actually always found it interesting that, while the Daedric Princes are bound to their spheres (since they ARE their particular sphere/thought-concept embodied) and cannot escape their nature, the minor or lesser Daedra are relatively free in some cases. It's an interesting dynamic.

perhaps the lesser daedra are given a choice, on whom to serve and when to serve, but if thats true then why don't the princes use their powers to create a race which would only obey them, surely that would be the smart thing, correct me if i'm wrong but didn't jygallag and sheogorath do that with the knights of order, aureal and mazken?

If those jesters can do it why doesn't Mehrunes do that too, as far as i can tell there aren't any daedra that solely follow him, not even the dremora since they didn't always serve him.

If only somebody on the forums could read the elder scrolls :banghead:

Well, let's take a look at what we know. At first glance, it definitely looks like there is some sort of contractual agreement going on here (especially among the more intelligent Daedra). In exchange for their service, the Daedra get access to that Prince's reclamation device, reducing the amount of time they spend in the void (a place they don't like) significantly. Hence, contract implies both parties individually agree to the terms, implying free will. Additionally, individual (albeit, very intelligent and powerful) Daedra have been known to rebel and betray their masters.

Now, among Xivilai, there doesn't seem to be any clan or racial bonds that they are also bound to. They seem to individually serve based on some individual contract, so definitely they have free will. However, a lot of the other Daedra do indeed have some sort of clan or racial bonds. Dremora serve their clan and the clan serves Dagon (evidenced by individual Dremora's dialogue and proclaiming in combat 'Kyn and Valkyn,' probably some sort of oath of what this fight is for). Aureal and Mazken don't seem to have any clan hierarchy (unless gender counts, but that's another conversation), but they do seem to have an intense loyalty towards their own race and the current amount of glory that their race has with respect to their master. Aside from kind attracts kind, there does seem to be some room for the idea that the more tight-nit Daedra has a bound consciousness that goes wherever they are loyal.

But, I tend to disagree with that reading on irrational grounds. Probably because I've grown up in a western philosophy and I know that the ES world also developed in one heavily steeped in it as well, especially when it comes to the Daedra (the whole thing about individuals choosing not to participate in creation).

Finally, with regards to the Knights of Order from UnknownK, my take on it is that they are like Jyggalag in that they are Daedra in that they didn't participate in creation, but they are more Anuic than Padomaic, unlike true Lesser Daedra.

I wouldn't let a Golden Saint hear you call her an "idiot mortal"

No. Sheogorath is not responsible for the creation of Mazken or of Aureal. As to the Knights. . . the most recent info, limited as it is, suggests that they are not Daedra at all. And the Elder Scrolls themselves wouldn't tell. . . for information, pray Jyggalag reconstructs his great library. Dyus kept it. . . And from indications from him, channeled by Beth Developers for an interview with emmesaries from The Imperial Library. . . The Knights are not Daedra AND the Loyalties and intrigues of the Mazken, a great People in their own right, are too lengthy and complicated to be relayed in a single tale.

I don't know how Aureal and Mazken society works. . . certainly the gender bias. . . but they do have rank. The Grand Kedraeach, and Grand. .. I don't recall the Aureal title, but they had titular positions, though seemingly far less complex than that of their Dremora kin.

I was under the impression that the Aureal and the Mazken serve Sheogorath by choice, since it beats wandering the cold waters of Oblivion.

Daedra are simply spirits that declined to participate in Shor's project, and there were more than Sixteen and Eight and One (and Magnus) spirits in existence back then. There were lesser spirits, in addition to greater spirits, who had an existence independent of the great ones, but were in the process of being absorbed by the great ones. Indeed, these spirits/ideas had a mortality of sorts--they would come and go from existence, and that is how a Sithic would have it. From the Sithic point of view, Lorkhan and his project were designed to solve the problem of the selfishly immortal great ones devouring the lesser ones before their time and taking up more "space" than was their due.

It's very likely the lesser Daedra of today have an origin that precedes the creation of the Daedric realms. They bind themselves to the Princes in exchange for protection and comfort, but their existence is not dependent on the Princes.

I'm extremely lazy, so rather then find all the sources again and write out my opinions I'm just going to link to the thing I wrote for the forum scholar's guild:

http://www.imperial-library.info/fsg/mortazoarticle01.shtml

You wrote that. Mortazo? I salute you, sir. An excellent job. Continue to pierce the darkness with your logical lance. Huzzah!

So knights of order are not daedra and mazken/aureal have free-will, well one last question then, have there ever been any daedric rebellions in the shivering isles?

Not that I know of.
Or well define Daedric rebellion? Daedra as in the creatures or the Princes?