I agree, but a compromise does have to be made, if a game has a story it's making me be something i did not choose, of course there are varying degrees of how intrusive stories are to the sandbox experience, but i believe that games have stories nowadays for the most part because the technology does not currently exist to make truly spectacular, dynamic worlds.

If a day should ever come where technology allows for amazing complex calculations to make living, breathing worlds that react to everything a player does instead of dictate to a player what they should do, then pre-written stories will feature far less in games and be found in mediums that are more traditional for stories such as books and films.

Sandbox has no end, stories have an end, there is an unavoidable clash there.

Once again, just my subjective opinion of course!

Jumping on roofs confirmed! :celebration:

i can see where the op is coming from and i can agree that i hope that skyrim is a little darker than oblivion. im not talking about six and raunchiness but darker story lines and quests. where you feel that the world around you is collapsing to daedra's will.

Actually, you can tell a story better if you sacrifice some freedom for it.
For example, you can make the story more personal by creating a family for the player and involving them into the story.

See, the so much hated Bioware games...

Wait, how can you quickly glance trough if you have to hover over them?
You'll be filled with junk with the grid system too, and for weapons and armor, you still have to get trough everything seeing whether you keep them or sell them...

If there's no story, what is there to actually play, and where is the incentive to do anything? (In an RPG, that is. Sims and the like go fine without a story.) I also don't see any clash in "story" and "sandbox" - the story ends when you end it, up until then you do what you do for as long as you like (unless there is a time limit - which Skyrim most likely will not have).

What? You can have a good story without a pre made character just as you can with a pre made character.

The witcher 2 is a useless game, it has no redeeming qualities

On the contrary. It's an excellent game, and Beth needs to really do its best to do better.
:P

I played Oblivion for 300 hours without touching the main storyline, enjoyed every minute of it and when i did do the main story it was the worst part of the game with those oblivion gates, i did say this is just my opinion, i am not saying i am right, just how i feel about games, some people don't need an incentive to just explore a world that has been created for them, walking through the tamriel fields just for the heck of it to see what creatures or caves i may find is a lot of fun for me, i don't have to have a preset direction.



There was a clash for me in new vegas for example, when i finished the story without knowing, 30 levels, accumulated items, world still left to explore but "no sorry, game over" that was very disappointing for me, and a clear example of story ruining my fun, but yes you make a good point there, if a story allows me to play on then i could just ignore it.

That what happen to Two Worlds. It tried to beat Oblivion in its own game but Two World fell flat on its face and I am dumb enough to buy it. The fighting in Two Worlds is bad.

The Witcher2 including the first one its own game with their lore no body else with a different type of story.
The Witcher came from novels and have to read them to understand what the world of the witcher is all about. IF the novel and the game is put in one book it will be 1500 pages. The start of the first game it will be at page 900.
Elders Scroll been always a computer game with their own world and lore. There is a novel written after the events of Oblivion.

Why compare? They are different games. Only two things is similar these two type of games. It a RPG with a medieval setting. That is all.

I don't want Skyrim be like The Witcher2. I want Skyrim to be Skyrim.

I like The Witcher 2.
It has mature content. The nvdes and the six scene is only one part of mature things in the in the game and its not the only mature thing in the game. Its not that much in it. Its one of the character you play along with something happen to his unit and he got the bloke who done it. What he done to that bloke certain part of his body make a male player of the game scrim and cry.
I want to like Skyrim but I cannot. Why?
Because its not out yet.

I like Oblivion and and like Morrowind.
I like The Witcher and The Witcher 2.
DON"T COMPARE THESE TWO GAME PLEASE!!!

I need sleep I getting a headache.

If that's the way you play, so be it. That's not, however - and as you agree below, something to prevent a good story from taking place.

(I don't enjoy pointless wandering around too much -- it's fine for in reasonable amounts every now and then, but the way I see it, there needs to be a focus point for the player to grasp on - and preferably well written and impactful one at that)



The game warned you at the point of no return and forwarded you to do things you'd left undone/unexplored, and there was nothing really hurrying you up.
Anyways, glad we agree on the main point.

Well of course all will have their different tastes and to each his own, personally i hope Elder Scrolls takes nothing from the other RPG's out there, there is good reasons why i am waiting for Skyrim and not them.



I don't remember it warning me specifically, all it said was that once i take this path i would be helping a certain faction, it never said "this game will now become defunct and useless after this quest, rendering you unable to play anymore" which is what it should have said, and even if i did miss the warning, why should it be there in the first place? why not an option to continue playing after the credits have rolled for someone who cares not for the story? i honestly do not understand that.

Oh? It didn't do this for me. I could still, y'know load one of my saves before this one very specific and very clear message and continue exploring the Mojave.

Anyways, Todd could learn that it's not always good to design games with focus groups. The team is good.

It's just that the creative director isn't sure if he prefers rpgs to action adventures.

@ Fraggle
Excellent point regarding limits (or lack of) in storytelling and sandbox environments.

But, IMO,it's definitely doable. Look at SI, the story was interesting, as you discovered who Sheo really is. And you could still do a lot of stuff outside it. I'm not expecting the game to predict every action I make and adapt accordingly, I expect the opposite, that I will have to adapt (with the story choices the game will almost surely present me of course).


@ Bukee
Lets take a Titan Quest scenario (closest game to taking Diablo's throne in it's hack'n'slash genre). I kick a titan's ass and he drops loot. I hoard all the valuable stuff, then examine each piece in my inventory in more detail to see what I'm keeping and what I'm selling. Once I did that the the next time I visit a merchant I can easily sell what I don't need etc.

Now in The Witcher 2 I do the same thing up to the point where I have to sell it. Now I have to go through a list (again) to sell stuff.

In TQ I'm saying it's a quick glance because it's just that. I hover over an item, I see it's stats. I can quickly equip it, drop it or sell it later on. In TW2 I have to scroll through that same list for the millionth time. And this happens every time I want to equip something, sell stuff etc. I have to look through the lsit when I pick up the item, then I have to do it again when I want to sell it or whatever.

There's a reason why grid inventory mods are so popular for OB.

Cimex casts "Patronise" on Fraggle!

Fraggle dodges!

Patronise had no effect on Fraggle! :tongue:

I do take your point and concede that i could have reloaded, but i had not saved for quite a while before that and i did miss the warning or at least misunderstood it, i feel it would not hurt anyone to allow play after the main story ends and the credits run their course, it's not as if anyone would be forced to play on.

Great reading in this thread until now !!! I like it !!! :tops:


Some lessons to be learned from the success of The Witcher:

1. The most AMAZING Collector's Edition I ever see (worth every ?insert your coin here? spent) :wub:

2. FREE DLC's !!!

3. Choices & consequences from TW 2 (and TW 1 too: Abigail still haunts my dreams, because I let her to be burned...)

4. From point 3 we get a no-linear history (3 beginings and 16 diferent ends).... "LINEAR" comes from line (short union between 2 points: "A" and "B").... For me, this has nothing to do if the game is open-world or not !!!


I'm very proud AGAIN to be a PC Gamer !


Just for the record, I love ALL the work from BGS !!! And I pretty sure Skyrim will be the best game EVER, hopefully without bugs !!!

:tongue:

That's not how you phrased it.

yes true enough

Those I can agree with and wouldn't have a problem with. Only thing is that no matter what anyone says, I don't believe a story can be as personal for a character that we mold compared to a preset character. With a story focused on one race, one gender, and one background you can do so much more. Especially since we decide our characters background, that leaves out a lot of storytelling options for Beth. I would still rather not have a pre determined character and background. Let alone not being able to choose my race and gender is near dealbreaker status.

I doubt anybody is advocating the restriction of gender and race in Skyrim. And we know we can choose between 10 races and between the 2 genders.


It works for some games and it doesn't in others.

One of the points of my post was that a story will be more personal when you can focus it and mold it around one race, one gender, one background. No one will change my feelings about that.

Ok, let's put this straight:
Everyoen who rates games by their graphics is dumb.
Skyrim may not have EPIC graphics cause of the consoles, that are weaker.
And Of Course, Skyrim hasn't been released yet and pepole are already throwing torches around (aka flaming) around how The Witcher 2 is better than Skyrim. You know there ARE 5 more months to develop Skyrim (Not counting the last days of May and the days in November). The Witcher has been released a while ago, but Skyrim is FAR from being released, So don't start any of that "B game is better than Skyrim" stuff. This thread pretty much looks like it. TO THE TIME MACHINE!

P.S. I wanted to point out that in the witcher, you can only play as Gerald, But in TES you can Fully Customize your character since Oblivion, and pick any of them since Arena!

Ah, no there is nothing that Beth needs to learn from The Witcher 2 which is severely overrated as a game.

1.TW2 has you stuck as Geralt, you can't choose male or female you are in Geralt's world unlike Skyrim where you'll have 10 choices for race and be able to choose your gender. Now TW2's story will be better because of less customization but the game will suffer because of that. Skyrim is your world you do what you want in the world and not have to worry about the main quest if you don't want to do so.

2. Both games have different battle systems. TW2 is an action 3rd person game, Skyrim is more 1st Person Action RPG that can be played in 3rd person but is better to play in 1st.

3. TW2 has romance but that makes the game suffer because it cuts down on other things you can do, not to mention that TES doesn't need this feature to succeed nor should they add it in anytime soon.

4. TW2 has a terrible potion system unlike Skyrim which will allow you to heal in combat although if you want to do restoration you'll have to put away your shield or two handed claymore

5. TW2 is a PC only game (Possible Rumor that it may go to console eventually) unlike Skyrim which will be featured on all 3 consoles with PC getting some better benefits but not that much.

6. TW2 hypes it's graphics as being excellent but I believe their devs forget that Graphics don't make a game.

7. TW2 has a voiced main character unlike Skyrim which will be a 1st person text based character. Those games are usually better off with non voiced characters, I know DA2 suffered when they went that route away from DAO.

8. The Engine and gameplay are completely different from what TES does. You can't go into all the houses in TW2 nor do you have an indepth body looting system like TES which goes into great detail.

9. How many GOTY's has CDprojeck won I believe it's zero and oh how many has BGS won, 3 and will probably be 4 when Skyrim comes out.

Beth shouldn't take any of their features and put them in Skyrim. It will take the series backwards instead of forwards, we'd be better off making Morrowind 2 or Oblivion 2 instead of copying what TW2 did.

We all know this is not a vs. thread but why even mention the Witcher 2 on a Skyrim forum let alon on any TES game.... :toughninja:
I don't understand what you're saying about Witcher 2 since thats the title? You when't on about Rockstar and other companies going for the "mature" side of things.... What was wrong with Morrowind and Oblivion not being mature enough? A prostitiution guild idea is stupid and its not wicked its foolish.

Ah ok.

The witcher is linear because have no freedom of travel and quest are fixed.

But in the witcher there are more way to solve some mission, and there are more choiches than in morrowind and oblivion. So for certain aspects is less linear for others is more.

But to remain I.T.

i think bethesda will not make a simple game. they had the time and the resources to create something mature, caleidoscopic and complex