There is no question that VATS has been much more powerful in Fallout 3 than in New Vegas:
- During VATS the PC takes 75 % of the damage inflicted instead of only 10 %.
- The bonus of critical chance has been reduced from 15 to 5 %.
Sure, VATS in NV isn’t the demigod-mode anymore it was in Fallout 3, but in my opinion it still feels powerful and makes the game more of a role-playing experience and less of a shooter. So, let’s build a character that excels in VATS-supported combat. My goal is NOT to blindly concentrate on VATS at all cost, but to create an extremely powerful build which is heavily utilizing VATS.
Any input highly welcome!

(Permanent) AP:
95 AP (AG 10) + 10 AP(Kamikaze-perk) + 30 AP (2 x Action Boy/Girl-perk) = 135 AP
The only suits of armor which add AP are the Armor of the 87th Tribe (+10 AP) and one variant of the Courier duster (+15 AP), both from Lonely Road. General Oliver’s uniform (+20 AP) is no real option since it’s not available for 99,9 % of the game. Personally, I don’t think that any of these make up for the +5 % crit bonus of Ulysses’ Duster.

Traits:
The only traits which deal with VATS are:
- Kamikaze
10 bonus AP for the price of -2 DT. Probably worth it.
- Fast Shot
A double-edged sword! Reduces AP costs by 20 % which allows for an absurd amount of shooting during VATS, especially in conjunction with Math Wrath and Plasma Spaz. On the other hand it decreases accuracy by 20 % and caps the maximum VATS-accuracy on 76 % (at least on consoles) which can AFAIK only be overcome by the perks Sniper, Gunslinger and Commando.
Has anyone played around with this trait to see if it’s worth it? Does the AP reduction work with automatic weapons in VATS even though Fast Shot has no accelerating effect on automatic weapons out of VATS?

Perks:
- Decent: Action Boy/Girl, Math Wrath, Plasma Spaz (if using a plasma weapon, of course), Sniper, Commando/Gunslinger (depending on weapon choice), Grim Reaper’s Sprint, Nerves of Steel
- Doubtful: Mysterious Stranger, Concentrated Fire (Probably better with Fast Shot.), Center of Mass
- Downright bad: Sneering Imperialist, Miss Fortune, Hobbler
By the way, does Ain't Like That Now modify AP cost like Fast Shot?

Weapons:
As always in New Vegas the choice which weapons to use is a hard one. Has anyone done the math which guns or energy weapons dominate VATS?

Um....Gatling Laser?

In VATS, you have TWELVE chances to crit with each shot having approximately 25% crit chance (maxed out crit chance). Once you crit, the entire burst is treated to critical hits. You can kill any enemy very easily regardless of difficulty (with the right setup of course). And with Grim Reaper Sprint and Math Wrath after every kill you only lose 7 AP. Very abusive way to use VATS.

Sprtel-Wood 9700 does more damage (slightly) using this method than the Gatling Laser, but you only have 8 chances rather than 12.

I kill the average human in 5 shots with my laser pistol in VATs.

Of course i have 40 energy weapons, 8 luck and my pistol is fully modded.

Dude, you always come up with stuff that makes me want to go run and figure it out. Now I gotta go amend the DPV (damage per VATS round) section of the Weapons Data Calculator to figure it adjusted for crit chance. :bolt:

Oh, and OP: Yes. I make a very detailed data calculator that, among other things, figures out all the weapon damage per round of VATS. And the beautiful part is I give it away for free. :deal:

-Gunny

I think some of the weapons are mostly for VATS and some are mostly for free aim.

You sent me your damage calculator some days ago, Gunny. I can’t stress enough how professional and plain fun it is.

Unfortunately, of all things the damage per round in VATS including damage from critical hits is missing – and I can’t calculate it on my own since I’m not completely sure how critical hits are handled for automatic weapons. Could you explain it please so that I can compare weapons for my VATS-build?

In another recent thread you recommended the light machine gun:


If I’m not mistaken ten bursts per VATS-round should be possible considering 135 AP, Fast Shot and Math Wrath. I’m extremely curious how it performs in comparism to other close quarter powerhouses like the .45 Auto SMG, the CZ57 Avenger or the gatling laser.

i prefer to play without using VATS, its much more challenging and realistic for me.

And please do tell how your post contributes to the thread.

Its like a thread asking for tips on how to get the most out of Energy Weapons and someone posts a comment saying they svck use Guns.

I like peanut butter.

From what I currently understand, and I'm not completely certain this is correct, fully automatic weapons roll for a critical hit on each shot in one vats unit of fire (ie: a 6 round burst from LMG; a 3 round burst from FIDO, etc.) If a crit is scored, then every shot in that unit of fire is awarded crit bonus damage. For the gatling laser, which seems to shoot one unit of fire of 12 laser shots, this means that each unit of fire in vats has a ((base crit chance + modifiers)x weapon crit multiplier x12 shots) chance of getting a crit. That's why higher rof automatic weapons are better for scoring crits in vats. The longer the burst (which seems to be loosely tied to rof) in one unit of vats fire, the higher the crit chance. And this even goes for x0 crit chance weapons. That's because situational crit chance modifiers are added after the weapons multiplier is factored in. So go for high rof, high vats rof weapons, with the best crit multiplier and that'd be your best bet.

-Gunny

Are you sure ACP that is the calculation?

Why are critical chance modifiers (Light Touch, Laser Commander) added BEFORE the weapon critical chance multiplier? Is it different for automatic weapons in VATS? Am I misreading your post?

EDIT: So if your calculation was correct then the MF Hyperbreeder in VATS would have roughly 61.9% chance to crit in VATS as opposed to 36% chance (maxed out crit chance) in free aim?
That's weird.....

Actually, this is easily testable with the gatling laser and its 12-shot-burst:

If one critical shot of the burst is really enough to make the whole burst count as a critical hit
AND
Light Touch, Laser Commander, Set Lasers for Fun and the VATS-bonus are added AFTER the weapon crit % multiplier,
then almost every VATS-burst with the gatling laser should be counted as critical hit.

Probability p for one single shot of a burst to be a critical hit:
(LU 10 + Finesse + Ulysses’ Duster + 1st Recon Beret) * crit % multiplier + Laser Commander + Light Touch + Set Laser for Fun + VATS-bonus
p = (0,10 + 0,05 +0,05 + 0,05) * X + 0,1 + 0,05 + 0,04 + 0,05
Let's assume X = 0 for simplicity's sake, so that: p = 0,24 = 24 %.

Probability P that at least one single shot of this burst of 12 shots is a critical hit:
P = 0,963 = 96,3 % (calculated using the formula for sampling with replacement)

About 19 of 20 VATS-bursts should be critical hits if these assumptions are correct. Since I'm playing on Xbox 360, I can't test this on my own. Could someone give it a try?

umm, excuse me, but the topic started is about VATS isnt it ? ("Let's break VATS! - Any input highly welcome!") - i wasnt aware replying to the topic that was started, required "selective" specific narrow replies, i was providing "Any input" as suggested from the topic starter.
i should have replied that i removed the "R2" button from my PS3 controller.


I wasnt implying that using VATS svcks, just that i find the game much more challenging without it.
no need to "threadcrap" me, im not a 13 year old, thanks.

No. I am not certain. And I think I've got the non-base crit chance multipliers added after weapon multiplier. After a whole bunch of testing that's where they were supposed to be. What I was trying to say was that things like light touch, et al. will give a x0 crit chance weapon a chance to crit. That part I'm pretty sure of. It's the way that crits are "rolled" for with automatics in VATS I'm not sure of, see below.


I agree with your premise. That's the only way I can think of to test this. Not gonna happen tonight, but I'll try to get to it this weekend, since I still have to test the Camarader-E perk damage buff for laser weapons. It's also easier on PC, all I gotta do is give light touch a higher crit chance. I think I still got it at +50% in one of the mods. That'll probably do.

-Gunny

so, where is that calculator?
a link please.
it sure is interesting to break apart the way VATS works. For me VATS is a trademark of the name Fallout and balancing it to perfection is finding the best way to enjoy a fallout fight. I love the FPS combination into the game, but wouldn't like at all loosing VATS.
Indeed in F3, this system was overpowering for the PC and agree to this change in F:NV.
But, in some cases it's flawed.
I'm a sniper based character and headshot al very long range in realt-time, while in VATS (that only enables at much shorter distance) i'm getting very low percentages even to the body of the target (having enebled specific perks for long range sniping).
In my vision the Perks system should be changed to apply better it's stats. A character with low weapons skill should have a ampler motion in the crosshair, and after gaining specific perks to cancel it out. Even the "anti-materiel" shoudn't be handled too easy for a non-sharpshooter.
And then the VATS should reflect the abillities of the PC in handling long range firing.

Haven't uploaded it anywhere yet. If you wants one, you gots to PM me with your e-mail. I'd be glad to send one out.

-gunny

Personally, I find that Trigger Discipline is a more effective VATS trait than Fast Shot.

Trigger Discipline means you get less shots in VATS? Sure, but remember Clint Eastwood's advice in Unforgiven:

Look son, being a good shot, being quick with a pistol, that don't do no harm, but it don't mean much next to being cool-headed. A man who will keep his head and not get rattled under fire, like as not, he'll kill ya.

With Trigger Discipline, you score hits more reliably and can engage things in VATS at greater ranges. 100 Guns + Commando + Sniper + AMR + match ammo + Trigger Discipline allows you to REALLY milk VATS for all it's worth, VATS-headshotting things with 95% hit probability at absurd distances for massive damage. With automatics, too, you put more bullets on target at greater distances, netting you more overall damage (and crit damage) than hit-or-miss VATS rounds with Fast Shot.

I rarely use it.

-Cheers