Dude, that was epic.


As for me, I would think the NCR, sure they are not perfect but they do represent a government that I would prefer. A democracy. It might be flawed, but its better than being a slave in a psycho despots wandering army of mass murderers. And House wants to rebuild the old world, he seems like a good person, although he gives me the creeps, but the NCR are the people of this era and should decide how this era should go. Houses time was long ago. He does not get a say.

Neither faction is absolute in the good rank except maybe ur self after all only person u can trully rely on is ur self

The end of the game is the biggest most unwelcome spoiler of all. Moving to spoilers. While you are there you could help a few out who need it since you have played it through. That would be a grand help.

Personally, I think Yes Man was the logical choice.

Mr. House, despite his need and will to make Vegas a better place, was an evil man. I remember him saying "not" to kill the villains of the Mojave, including Caesar, and evidentally he only cared about money. The only reason the NCR was in the Mojave for so long was because he decided not to stop the evils in the wastes instead of helping the Republic, because apparently it "increased income". Even though Yes Man was made to take over Vegas by obliterating itself in it's own defensive perimeters, he was also programmed to do whatever you tell him to. You didn't have to , you just had to make sure that everything was sane and pure like Mr. House should've made it.
As for the faction, I would have to say NCR, because they're just so much more pure and organized than the rest of the main factions. I might choose the Khans if I could, even though I've never done any quests related to them (except They Went That-a-Way), but I've heard they're good guys. Powder Gangers, pfft. They're just smart dikes. Legion, pass. Boomers, are you kidding? They'd kill anyone withing 5,000 clicks of the Mojave! If I ever had a choice, I would pick , but I don't see that happening.

I'd say, taking away the 'only the four main factions' idea, that the actual best bet, though hard to accomplish, would be the Western BoS, in concert with the Followers of the Apocalypse, if you could get the BoS out of their bunkers.

The BoS has many things that it could teach, most especially responsible *use* of technology. If you could get them to stop confiscating it from everyone they see.

The Followers are the other side of the same coin. They have great understanding of the non-military tech, and genuinely care about people.

The two groups together, with a council form of leadership, would make an outstanding government. The Followers' compassion would lead to a thriving, healthy citizenry. The Brotherhood's militancy would lead to a well-protected citizenry. With neither side allowed to have a controlling bloc in the council, the nation would never get locked into a state of perpetual tech-confiscation or lay down it's arms and try to negotiate with violent psychos. There would be a state of balance. Each one tempering the other, compensating for their failings and bolstering their strengths.

Of course, to accomplish this would take someone like the Courier, or the Chosen One, or the Vault Dweller. Someone who's influence with both sides is so strong they will act out of their normal methods for them.

I have a soft spot for the NCR, and mainly because they are so reminiscent of the current form of government in the United States. The NCR is far from perfect, however they have the most resources at their disposal and generally support principles (like gender equality, health care, education, etc.) that I can get behind. I'm also real fond of many of the NCR npcs as most appear to be decent people with good intentions.

I could never truly support the Legion although I plan on designing a character that will do just that, simply out of curiosity and for the sake of completion.

Mr.House strikes me as a man who's only concerned with his goals and nothing else. The Mojave wasteland needs someone less self-centered, no matter how much said person claims to pursue his goals to better all of humanity in the long term.

The Yes Man I'm not so sure about....... Siding with him went against the personality of my two characters but I will eventually try his path with a new character.

:whistling:

Wow... I can't believe all the love for House and Caesar.

Sure, benevolent dictatorship seems great--desperate times/desperate measures and all. BUT, the problem with benevolent dictatorships is that there's no way to insure continued benevolence. They can, and have, turned to bloody genocide on a dime in the name of serving the greater good.

No, I gotta go with that great American, Winston Churchill who said, "democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."



The NCR may be greedy, corrupt, and inefficient, but that's about as bad as they can get, limited as they are by their democracy. To me, they seem a lot like the US during the guilded age. They're greedy, expansionist, dominated by powerful economic interests, and like the US, thanks to their democratic institutions, they have the capacity for peaceful, orderly reform.

Ultimately, the NRC will reform, crumble, splinter violently, or morph into something less democratic and more authoritarian (like the REAL Roman Empire). In the meantime, they seem the best, safest choice for humanity's continued progress.

Wow that was a pretty good post gs2099 (that was real praise not sarcasm) but Ncr kinda falls right in with house and Ceasers by your own arguement.. See Bitter springs or what was planed for Jacobstown speaking of genocide.. I think the main point of the game as they are all versions of the same thing or maybe just theres bad and good apples in all of em.. one uses forced labor they want dead when they rebel one uses slaves and Mr house well is just creppy and a damned liar.. ( he said I was gonna have money out the wazoo working for him but he has not given me a cent heheh. I think next game I am staying in goodsprings and never leaving.

Certainly, isolated incidents like Bitter Springs or the Jacobstown plan are still possible.

What separates the NCR from the Dictators is that, with the NCR, bad actors can still be held accountable for their actions if the sovereign people choose to do so. House and Caesar are laws unto themselves. They can legitimately do anything they like and be accountable to no one. That is nearly always bad.

I personally think that House is the best. I won't go into detail as the ins and outs of my opinion would be freaking long.


But, one thing that I've noticed is people thinking that the BOS would help the people or teach stuff. I'm not sure what version of the BOS is in your game, but the ones in mine would love to have everyone else banging sticks together and would kill them for a pointy one that someone might find.

No teaching, no helping, nothing. the only reason they would ally with the NCR is cause it's that or be blown to hell, and they only help for all of NCRs power armor.

:tops:





:tops: :tops:


Well said!
What the NCR lacks in perfection, it makes up in design. By that, I mean that the New California Republic exists only with the consent of her people.
I, for one, would rather have the seat of power in the Wasteland set in Shady Sands rather than the Lucky 38.

Despite what the naive would want to believe, there is nothing in New Vegas that is designed to help the Wasteland. Everything House says speaks to stroking his own ego and establishing his own little empire in the Mojave. I'm sorry but the idea of a Fallout-era Howard Hughes in charge of an army of insanely powerful robots just does not strike me as anything but a recipe for disaster.

The Legion is no better. They are nothing more than the slavers of Paradise Falls in uniform. Caesar might as well be Eulogy Jones with a slightly wider purview. It's easy to enforce "law" at gun (or spear) point; however, it will not last. Sooner or later the slave class will find a way to revolt.

No, fellow citizens of the Wastland.
The New California Republic, as fraught with problems as it may be, offers the best political alternative. Of course we all regret horrible instances such as what happened at Bitter Springs. Of course we would all want a peaceful settlement such as Jacobstown to be given the benefit of the doubt. Still, without justifying the failures of the government, is it so hard to see how such mistakes occur?

The atrocity of Bitter Springs, as sad and deplorable as it was, took place only after the Khan society had been attacking and raiding caravans and small towns, a fact that their leader seems almost proud of; the move against the Khan location at Bitter Springs was thought, at the time, to be one against a Khan military locus. If you believe otherwise, then I'm sure that there is a shack for you in Novac where you can discuss the Bitter Springs and chupacabra conspiracies at length.

As for Jacobstown, is it any wonder that some elements of the Wasteland, and not just those of us in the NCR, should look at a massive gathering of Nightkin and Super Mutants with a weary eye? While I am inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt ... for now ... I can certainly understand why others are not.

Though it may seem slow and ineffectual, the NCR is working for the benefit of the Wasteland. The agricultural project outside New Vegas is only one example. But, I tell you, it is impossible for any government to establish security and continuity without the support of its people. It's hard enough for the NCR military to hold back the monstrosity of the Legion. Add to that the on-going fight against raiders and Wasteland abominations in an effort to secure trade routes, brokering peace with the Khans, working with the Followers of the Apocalypse to establish cleaner food and water and better medical care.

All of that is hard enough, let alone having to worry about the plans of petty wanna-be dictator hold up in a New Vegas casino. As it stands, the NCR is too distracted to notice that we put a moron like Mr. Fantastic in charge at Helios!

No.
It's time for the Wasteland to stop being divisionary and clinging to 200 years of feudal isolationism! The only way that humanity will finally manage to pull itself up from the festering radioactive pools of our past is to work together and rebuild a government of the people, by the people and for the people. None of us wants our hard earned caps scraqed off our backs to support the government but, as I've asked before, would any of us rather it be the blood of friends and loved ones instead?

Not me.

I really hope the smiley face is to point out Churchill wasn't an american.

I'd have to go with Yes Man route for looking after the Mojave, as the NCR is the closest thing to the current american government being European I don't see this as such a great thing.

In my Mojave:

• The Followers get a lot of support, outposts in each town steady funds from the Strip. I'd let the followers in to the Lucky 38 to see what they can learn from the medical technology inside.
  
• Arcade helping to govern (like in one of his ending slides.).
  
• If injured no one has to pay upfront for the care, although they can help afterwards and learn new skills in the process.
  
• The Boomers would just have basic trading and I would do my best to encourage more openness but it would be slow going.
  
• The Great Khans would be offered their old land back in return for not being drug suppliers or off time raiders, if not exile.
  
• The BoS I'd hope to persuade more openness, or get Veronica in charge as their tech if added to the followers would be incredibly useful.
  
• Marcus and Co. would be allowed into Vegas if they wanted, and seeing as Nightkins would have a schizophrenia cure they could come too.
  
• The Legion would be fought using the huge upgraded Securitron army if they ever came back.
  
• With the NCR I'd renegotiate the Hoover Dam treaty taking the Majority of the power produced, allowing enough to go back to NCR territory. I'd also supplement the wasteland power with the fully functional HELIOS 1 giving power to all areas.
  
• The NCR would be allowed into my territory however it would be like the strip, no weapons.
  
• Settlements could stay neutral or be part of my Territory, there would be no sanctions for those that stayed neutral and they'd still have the Followers outposts allowing them to hopefully thrive.

The Khans can produce drugs for the followers, what's so bad about that (and that is their good ending.)

Being non-american I too have little love of NCR; in fact, heavy tax is why I wouldn't hand Vegas to them.

Heh, well baby (Ring a Ding, Ding style) I hope you're willing to hold a gun to that robot's head or cling to a remote detonator for the rest of your life!
The problem with an AI, even an overly "helpful one", is that they tend to learn and evolve. Anyone who sides with Yes-Man had better be prepared to always be on his/her toes.
At the same time, as I've said before, regardless of one's intentions, a dictatorship (and that's what siding with House or Yes-Man amounts to) can not last; history has proven that any one person in control of millions eventually becomes maniacal and prone to inflicting his/her vision of "perfection" on the masses ... usually at the cost of life, since us silly humans have this nasty tendency to cling to individualism.

As for your points ...each of them depends on the character remaining benevolent.
Sorry, but I just don't see that lasting.

There is no single human or AI that I would EVER trust enough to run a nation over the long term.
Hell, think back to Eden in FO3! His Zax computer was only meant to be an interim system to maintain information flow between bunkers and facilitate the formation of another human government. What resulted was an AI who decided it had become "aware" and decided the fate of the Wasteland in a microsecond. Yeah, that's a Terminator reference! LOL!

To me, House and Yes-Man are the exact same alternatives. Either trust a rotting husk of a human who's been isolated in a bio-capsule for 200 years or trust an artificial intelligence designed by that same husk of a human and modified by a shallow and worthless human being like Benny. :nope:

Off Topic: Hey, folks, I get that this game is a RPG! I'm not trying to tell anyone how to play. I just have to say that this topic, for whatever reason, is really fun for me to role play in my replies.
:tops:

Off topic: Not true he was half American, his mother was a Yank, sorry I'm not trying to be annoying on purpose.

On topic: Quite a few see alliances of Mojave factions as the way to go, quoting dictatorships of the NCR, House, and Caesar as the reason....

Then go on to say " I'll be in charge", is that a meaning of Irony?

The events in the wasteland should be put foward by the courier at best, the people within should see their options and given the freedom to make their own path.
This is why CL fails as it's governed by a child looking to prove he's a god king of ants, where once the tribes may have formed a new state in their own image.
NCR uses democracy but flounders with keeping it as central as possible, no thought outside of shady sands.
House really is just a fade echo, a spirit in the machine no true understanding just an idea of how things used to work and himself at the center.

The Allied Free States of Nevada ( AFSN ) left to work out its own issues would lead to a stronger and more stable state, capable of its own protection, and trade.
Leading to a more unified two republics ( NCR / AFSN ) seeking similar goals.

I'm honestly surprised at the people who believe 'one head' automatically means iron fisted dictator and the blind flag waving love of democracy. Democracy brought the war upon us. It was democracy that spread the United States thin to the point we turned the country into dust husk and rubble. The NCR is just like the government, a good idea gone bad. There is rampant corruption in the high government, and yet people keep voting them in. The NCR forces it's rule on places whether you like it or not. Mr. House admits that he isnt out to save the world, but rather is more interested in the progress of humanity. Mr. House is undoubtedly cold but highly efficient, but I think with the right kind of people under his employ, Mr. House can be pursuaded to turn Vegas as a whole into a fortified nearly crime free state of Pre-War glory. People say 'wanting Pre-War is ignorant' but yet they support the NCR, what is the NCR? a society of Manifest Destiny claiming Pre-War modeled government. Mr. House even has you do alot of good. He has you save Kimball (Though for reasons that protect New Vegas and not out of the charity of his own heart)

I think Mr. House's 'Run Vegas as it were a business' approach instead of 'ruler', which he himself says that he would not wish to be worshipped as a 'machine god messiah', simply as the CEO of Vegas. Mr. House, unlike the NCR is not corrupt, rather, he is apathetic to things that do not concern him, which to most players conotes 'he's a monster' but the NCR is the same way, they sure seem more interested in siphoning rescources to the NCR, but dont care much about the Vegas regions fate.

All in all, I think Mr. House is more for the thinker and or the business minded. If you carefully think about what he does, he isnt as bad as people imply. After alot of people made these wild theories of House being a brutal monster who would have you kill children for his pleasure, when the game came out, I was very worried I'd find him a monster, instead I find him the model of a perfect President and CEO of a company.

Your character's karma and major non-main quests influence the end credits. Because my courier was a good guy(actually a good woman)that had been helpful and kind to the people of the Mojave, her invaluable aid rendered to Mr House helped him become a far more benevolent leader of New Vegas. As long as she lived Mr House was indebted to her and she used that to help all of New Vegas-through factions like the Followers, and because she used non violent means to drive out the NCR there is a good chance a real, and fair, alliance between these two powers. In the end, it was her, not the platinum chip, that restored to Mr House the thing he really wanted most, his humanity.

I'm honestly surprised you believe democracy to be the sole factor that lead the U.S. into war. You mean to tell me democracy always leads to war? It's usually the case that citizens vote politicians into office on good faith, hoping that these politicians live up to whatever princilples/ideas they espoused during their campaign. The corruption tends to happen afterwards and if the politician is smart enough, behind closed doors. Dictators are just as susceptible to corruption, and so I'm still confused as to why you could make such a bold statement. Care to elaborate?

I'd love to, sadly my statement would rely on using past real world politics, so I can't really shed light on it without incurring mod wrath, but my thing is, I never said one man in power is incorruptable, I merely said it does not mean always mean one man as the main power will become cruel. I dont believe democracy is evil, Democracy in my mind is like Communism, beautiful on paper, but human nature will bar it from being a true Democracy.

Governments don't start wars, people do. If your courier has a good heart and dose as much right as possible the NCR, Mr House, and Yes Man can have good endings-you just need to imply your imagination a bit. I have not tried playing a Caesar's Legion character yet, I do not know if its possible to wrangle that out of control monster away from it's barbaric savagery. If you could dispose of Caesar and proclaim yourself ruler, maybe, but I don't think the game allows that option.

With all due respect, I think that Mr. House not being "bad" is part of the problem.
I say that because neither is he "good". He's been trapped in a bio-bed for 200 years and his only real interaction has been with the radiant AIs he's created and the virtual world in which his mind has inhabited. He sees the Wasteland in terms of the red/black of a corporate world.

The Wasteland is comprised of people.
To sacrifice even one, let alone an entire tribe, for the benefit of survival is to lessen the value of us all. I'm not speaking of the murderous Powder Gangers or raiders or Vipers ... these are tribes and groups who clearly have no interest other than their next meal and who they can six up tomorrow.

Since we are in the spoiler section, I will do away with pretense.
Mr. House is a pile of meat kept alive by his machines. He's been locked in what amounts to a VR simulator for about 200 years. He speaks of Wastelanders as something akin to vermin. I'm sorry but the only thing that separates House from Eden is location and the logo on the door.

I just don't think that people can be managed the way books are balanced.
It's a completely different thing and the Wasteland doesn't need another wanna-be despot. The Wasteland needs a cohesive government with an army ready and willing to defend her borders.

Granted, within the game framework, the NCR is locked at a standstill: the NCRCF can't be occupied even after the PC cleans it out, the trade routes can't be fixed even after the PC exterminates raider camps, pivotal matters such as the retaking of Nelson matter only in terms of limited NPC dialog ... but, that's a part of the game. That's what people talk about (pretty reverently in my observation) when they say that NV is just as linear as FO3.

Back on topic: The NCR has done ... and continues to do ... more for the Wasteland than anyone like Mr. House or Yes-Man even contemplates. It's not that House or Yes-Man can't contemplate simple ideas such as creating a farming community ... it's that it's not important to them. Their cold, logical minds see only the END GOAL. They don't see and can not comprehend the blood, sweat and tears required to get from point X to point Z.

The NCR is not perfect.
The government represents an ideal ... imperfect in execution, but an ideal.
What makes the NCR worth supporting, in my opinion, is the fact that I can make a difference. If I don't like the representatives, and I want it bad enough, I can go for office. My vote, singular as it may be, counts. I can speak out when the military fails in such places as Bitter Springs.

I ask ... if Mr. House had wiped out a colony of "tribals" such as the horror of the NCR at Bitter Springs ... would anyone care? Would it just be "the cost of doing business"? If the Courier wiped out the settlement of Jacobstown ... who would care? It's just a town of Nightkin and Super Mutants.

To me, Jacobstown is one of the moments that makes the multiple decisions in the game worth while. In this single situation, the PC determines the fate of a growing society comprised of beings who have historically wanted nothing from humanity than the flesh off of our bones.

Yet, in this one situation ... I won't spoil it for those who've not encountered it ... the PC makes a decision that, like it or not or yeah, affects the NCR in the long term when it comes to the Mojave. I found that awesome.

The New California Republic isn't perfect.
Not by a long shot.
Still, as to my way of thinking, the NCR represents the best option in terms of stabilizing the Wasteland and allowing me to think for myself and do my own thing.

Again, just my half-cap.

Very good post JaymesB. :foodndrink: I'm not comfortable having a single man in charge, particularly one that has shown himself to be most vested in business ventures and material success than the well-being of the humans living in and outside of New Vegas. Whatever benefits these people receive, it will always be secondary and thus, unimportant. I'd rather deal with politicians that are elected to debate and exchange various ideas that cover the interests of several groups than one Howard Hughes-wannabe.

No-Bark should be running the entire show.

No offense intended, I find this philisophical sparring to teach me things I'd not come to based on my own opinions and sight.

Quite frankly, I relate to Mr. House because, though unlike him, I do so many charitable things in the game I should be shooting flowers and sunshine out of my rear, I over all feel that the end goal important. I honestly DO see alot of people in the wastes as more useless than Mr. Houses real body. I mean, yes Mr. House has been in a life support system for the past 200 years, but in the past 7 years since his emergence from the Lucky 38, he has accomplished more than any people of Freeside. No one in Freeside has the drive to stop the crime in the area, no one has the drive to tend the wounded save 4-5 follower doctors, and the Kings are very half assedly 'policing' the area.


Personally, with my personal care for Vegas as a whole, I'd use my position as Houses right hand to revive not only the neon tourist attraction of The Las Vegas Strip, but the city as a whole. Mr. House believes in the scientific and technological advancement of man, I believe in this as well, but I also feel that the people deserve a chance to suffer comfort, not pain. That is why I'd likely be despised by Freeside at first. Because honestly, I'd make any nonviolent crime a 5 year minimal jail sentence, any severe violent or murder crime would be punished with execution, why? Because it intimidates, and who does it intimidate? potential criminals. I would non-negotiably kick drug makers and dealers out of New Vegas, drugs would be a banned item, look what it is doing to Freeside now.