as far as I know, here's what's going on with them:

1. Ulfric wants to be the high king
2. Ulfric wants to protect Nords and their culture but does not care for other races
3. the other races that came looking for places to stay in windhelm aren't treated very kindly by Ulfric (and are kind of homeless)
4. the Imperials don't really care for the Nords (?) or their culture
5. the empire/imperials supporting the empire are infringing on the nords' right to rule skyrim
(while it is debatable as to who should truly rule skyrim because the nords aren't the first ones to inhabit skyrim)
6. at some point the Imperials/the empire banned worship of Talos through a pact/treaty made with the thalmor.

any more to add/fix?
I'd really like a solid understanding on these two groups :/

Thalamor wants to ban the worship of Talos

Stormcloaks main goal is to be allowed to worship Talos freely.

The search function is your friend

1. Ulfric killed the last high king in a duel. He used a shout though which, to me, seems rather dishonorable. He wants to be High King and will quash any resistance to this idea if he gets his way.
2. Ulfric says he wants to protect the Nords culture but the Priestess of Talos in Windhelm says he never visits the Temple of Talos.
3. He doesn't allow Argonians or Khajits in Windhelm and Dumner are forced to live in a slum with no protection.
4. Many Imperials are Nords!
5. The Stormcloaks are angry at the Empire because they accepted the White Gold Concordant which banned the worship of Talos in the Empire (and thus Skyrim as well) so they want Skyrim out of the Empire.

I personally just think Ulfric wants power and cares little about his people. Throughout the entire Stormcloak side of the Civil War quest he speaks only about how things are going to effect him and his rule.

Yh pretty much


Got to laugh how the dark elves are treated like [censored] and low after how they treated the argonians in morrowind.

It's difficult to pin down EXACTLY what the interests and motives of each group are.

It's debatable whether or not the Stormcloaks have a "right" to rule themselves in Skyrim, as they are under control of the Empire (I think). Try think back to ancient history when Scotland was ruled by England. William Wallace and his guerilla forces rebelled against English rule. In this regard, the Scottish rebels are the Stormcloaks, and the Empire are the English. Possibly not the best way to explain it but hope it helps...

Ulfric claims to only want to help his Nordic people, however it could be argued that his motives are much more personal and selfish than that. His aim is to be the High King of Skyrim, and that's pretty much it.

if many Imperials are Nords and from what I understand most Nords worship Talos,
how come they signed the White Gold Concordant?

Well that's what happens when you're in a war you want to get out of because you can't afford it, it was either that or keep fighting even though your army is now in shambles and your own capital was just ravaged. The empire went with a 'live to fight another day' choice.

You pretty much got it right. There's no real good choice in the war. Seems like if your any race but nord you might as well go with the imperials.

It's pretty childish really. Cyrodiil was ravaged during the war, and saw appalling atrocities committed against the civilian population, but apparently it's worse that the Nords should have to worship in secret for a while. Someone, please grab Ulfric a tissue.

skyrim is basically where the human empire on tamriel started.

And yet those same Nords could get randomly taken by the Thalmor to get tortured or worse just for worshiping a Divine.

Which wasn't the case until after the Markarth Incident. The Empire only allowed the Thalmor in after Ulfric began openly violating the Concordat.

As far as your list, it's not that the Imperials "don't care" about Nord culture, but when the White Gold Concordant came about, it was originally declined, which started the Great War. After many deaths on both sides, the Empire in Cyrodil was in shambles, and the Emperor just wanted to save his people and stop the war, so he chose to accept the agreement from the Thalmor, which included a ban on the worship of Talos (because Talos is the only "human" to be made a god, and the high elves believe this to be unacceptable). Skyrim was part of the Empire before the war started, but after this agreement was made, the Stormcloaks are looking to fight to govern themselves, and also, to serve any god they please. The "real threat" are the Thalmor, and the fight between the Imperials and the Stormcloaks is beneficial to them, because it weakens the Empire, and will make it easier for them to sweep in and rule over Skyrim, just as they have in other parts of Tamriel. I suggest reading the book in game titled "The Great War" so that you can have some of this back information at your disposal to perhaps make a better decision for yourself, and who you feel is more justified in their fight. It can be found in Dragonsreach in the room just outside the door to the Jarl's quarters. Also to note, the Nord people did come to help in this war against the Thalmor, so when the Empire agreed to the treaty that banned the worship of their god, it was like a slap in the face. No one really know what the future holds (future content release, etc) but the decision is yours to make. Hopefully this helps.

Remember that Talos was an Imperial god as well, and possibly the principal god (in the minds of most Imperials) of the Nine, perhaps behind Akatosh.

Also, the Empire turned a blind eye to Talos worship in Skyrim, until the Markarth incident which (for some reason) forced the Imperials to bring in the Thalmor. If Ulfric and his supporters weren't so openly defiant of the Empire, they'd still be getting away with worshipping Talos.

thanks for the long explanation.
I'll check that book out

Basically what I can gather is that the Empire knows that a war with the Thalmor is coming again. If they lose Skyrim to succession, they'll be even weaker than they already are. So they're fighting to keep Skyrim around to help out the overall threat of the Thalmor down. What Ulfric doesn't seem to understand is that the Thalmor would be happy to wipe out Skyrim too.

You know what's weird? I've heard multiple people on this board say that the priestess says that Ulfric doesn't visit the Temple of Talos, but in my game she clearly told me that he did, and prays for strength. Confusing.

(Minor spoilers on Ulfric's backstory below that you can find out by talking to him)

You should also know that part of the reason that Ulfric is so ticked at the Empire is that he used to fight for them during the Great War. He was training to become a Greybeard but left the lifestyle in order to fight in the Great War, and ended up being captured and tortured. For his and his comrades' efforts, Talos worship was banned and to many Nords, their way of life outlawed. They did not take kindly to this.



See what I wrote above. It doesn't make everything that Ulfric does justified, but it explains it.

If you go back to Oblivion, you can see that the basic attitudes towards Nords is that they're big and stupid, and make the best soldiers. The empire has been using them for centuries as soldiers to fight and die in wars, while not really giving their culture or beliefs a lot of credence. This leads to a lot of bad feelings when Nord men and women are dying in another country while getting little respect in return.

Although he can play the part of the humble warrior fighting the good fight for Skyrim, I think he has a power hungry streak and he doesn't do much (IMHO) to dissuade you of the notion becoming High King is a big part of what he's doing .



I think regardless of what is going on with Ulfric he does indeed care for his people and land (well the people that agree with him and don't get in his way at least).

Unfortunately he doesn't really seem to appreciate the fact Nords are no longer the only people of Skyrim (and they weren't the first). The Forsworn, as well as all the members of other races that have immigrated there over the many years Skyrim as been part of the Empire simply make his "Skyrim for the Nords" unacceptable.



True.



I'm not sure I would phrase it like that - they might not especially care for parts of it, but they don't care enough to try and change it. The largely respected the Dunmer's slave owning ways in Morrowind for example, even though the rest of the Empire had outlawed already.

No "don't care enough to change it" is also wrong... the Empire is quite tolerant and, at odds with many representation of long lived Empires in fiction, rather respectful towards its diverse population and its people.

Plus there are a lot of Nords in the Legion, there have been Nordic Emperors etc.



I guess it depends whether you agree or disagree with the way Ulfric handled the old High King.



When they signed the peace treaty with the Thalmor that was one of the conditions the Thalmor imposed. The Empire never actually enforced the ban however (so people could go on worshipping, just not as publically), and the Thalmor only got an opening to come in and throw their weight around when Ulfric started making noise about Talos and it looked like the Empire wasn't upholding its end of the treaty..

Plus Talos was a major Imperial deity - his worship was particuarly strong in Skyrim true, but it isn't like the Empire just chose to get rid of some minor foriegn deity who wasn't important to them. They worshipped him to, as one of the Nine Divines.

I understand the motivations behind the Stormcloak cause, even if I am skeptical of Ulfric's. My point is not that his rebellion is inexplicable or baseless, but rather than it is childish and short-sighted.

Actually, you can find evidence in the game that suggests the Emperor only signed the Concordant because the Thalmor paid him off; not to actually save lives.

What evidence is this?

That's a fair argument. Though it IS more fun!

It is heavily implied through the state of the cities under Ulfric's rule and other quests that he doesn't believe in the 'cause' as much as most people think, if at all, and he only wants power. Either way, the Thalmor want the Imperials and Stormcloaks to fight.

The question, for me at least, ended up being:

who would stand a better chance of beating off the thalmor and restoring the state of the Empire and the rule of Talos? The Empire still weak, but united with skyrim, or the Empire, even weaker and at odds with skyrim?

In other words, Thalmor is the real enemy, and the Stormcloaks don't exactly have any plans to kick the Thalmor's ass, only to seclude themselves to an eventual defeat by the Thalmor -anyway- if they even further beat down the Empire

He'll deny this at first saying Skyrim hasn't even had a true high king in a long time. He used a thu'rm or dragonshout to weaken the king which he learnt from the Greybeards which is a violation of all the Greybeards beliefs in the way of the voice. After weakening the high king, Ulfric plunged a dagger into the king which he admits if you talk to him about it; People are split over if it was a fair fight or a cold blooded murder, it's likely the latter given the weapon of choice.





So he claims, it's hard to know if he is really telling the truth but his actions do show that he has no care at all about the other races.



Primarily this is the Dunmer who fled Marrowind because of the issues with the Red Mountain which caused a lot of Dunmer to flee Marrowind. The Dunmer alive when this happened kinda deserved it however on the most part, their children do not tho. As for the Argonians in Windhelm, they're treated as virtual slaves and have done nothing to deserve this, if you aren't a nord they don't care. Ulfric also played a part in the raids/invasion on the Forsworn home city of Markarth, which appears to be a generally unprovoked attack against the primarily Breton inhabitants and Nords of skyrim have a horrible history of attacking the Bretons in usually unprovoked attacks.



Imperials are Humans just like the Nords and are of common descent, Imperials tend to care about all the races which can be a weakness sometimes considering a lot of the provinces would like to see the Imperials dead. The Imperials are over-stretched and the Aldmeri Dominion believes all humans have to die, so the Imperials need to harden up and accept that a real war with Summerset Isle may be needed. Not all Altmer support the Aldmeri Dominion tho, some even stand firmly against it and so a war with the Aldmeri Dominion may not be as bloody as everybody thinks it will be.



yes and no, Skyrim has a high king and pretty much rules itself, it is a part of the empire as are all the provinces so the empire does remain the highest authority. I would suggest you think of it a bit like USA but without democracy, the Emperor is a bit like the president, the high king is state governor and below him are the more regional Jarls. It was the Nords that pretty much set this up to begin with, the only thing that changed is the line of succession for Emperor switched to Imperials instead of Nords (dragon borns are primarily candidates for the position of emperor). The problem the Nords have is the peace treaty, the White-Gold Concordat which is a sign of weakness on the empires part for having even fallen into the position to have to sign that. Hammerfell also are not happy with the Imperial Empire over that either and feel the Empire abandoned them in their moment of need.



Not exactly, they signed the White-Gold Concordat with the Aldmeri Dominion and are pretending it's banned in-line with the White-Gold Concordat which prohibits Talos Worship; however the empire has made no real action in the enforcement for it and so the Thalmor are having to do that manually themselves. Everybody knows they is going to be another war and the Thalmor realize they can't really enforce the ban on Talos with the empire doing effectively nothing, instead they're trying to use it to force a loss of confidence in the Imperial Empire. The harder the Thalmor push the more the Nords react but they react against the Empire instead of against the Thalmor. The stormcloaks unfortunately aren't very bright else they'd realize the deeper strategy at play, however racism is also fairly common among the stormcloaks and it shouldn't be a surprise they're not the brightest of people in the world.