Let me get this straight... : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Tue May 08, 2012 2:13 am

Dived headfirst into a ton of lore over the past couple of days, since I've never gotten into that before and this is what I seem to understand:

The Thalmor are trying to unmake Talos, and therefore destroy (or revert, is that a better word?) the universe, back to time before creation happened, because of their belief system
There are eight towers (some in a metaphorical sense) that stop all of reality... falling apart as far as I can tell
Many of these towers have been 'deactivated' or destroyed in some way (two during the Oblivion Crisis, Red Mountain erupted etc)
Snow-throat is one of the last (potentially the last active) tower, and is damaged somehow. What the stone is, is unknown (I'm thinking possibly the Jagged Crown, as it acts in a similar manner to other stones)
This is why the Thalmor are stirring trouble in Skyrim. Disunity there gives them better access to the tower?

As the people who actually follow the lore know, all the events of previous games match up to the prophecy in the Book of the Dragonborn. In the last line, however:

When http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Imperial_Simulacrum takes its place at the eight corners of the world (Arena, 8 pieces of the staff)

When the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Anumidium walks and http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Warp_in_the_West_(event) (Numidium, in Daggerfall)

When the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Tribunal fail and the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Red_Mountain http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Vvardenfell#Red_Mountain_Eruption (Either Morrowind or one of the expansions if I remember correctly?)

When the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Septim_Dynasty http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Oblivion_Crisis, and the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Third_Empire falls (Oblivion: the Septim dynasty, heirs to Talos, are wiped out, and the Amulet of Kings is destroyed, deactivating that tower)

When the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Throat_of_the_World lies http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Wars#The_Stormcloak_Rebellion (Skyrim: the high King is dead, this description implies this tower can still be saved (and also points towards the Jagged Crown being the stone)

The http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Alduin wakes, and the Wheel turns upon the Last Dragonborn.

Does the "Wheel" refer to the Wheel of Convention? Is this still referring to the end times, and that the Dragonborn has the potential to prevent this?

» Mon May 07, 2012 4:45 pm

As I understand it, yes. But I'm only a lore buff in training; the more seasoned members could give you a better answer.

» Mon May 07, 2012 4:28 pm

Dived headfirst into a ton of lore over the past couple of days, since I've never gotten into that before and this is what I seem to understand:

The Thalmor are trying to unmake Talos, and therefore destroy (or revert, is that a better word?) the universe, back to time before creation happened, because of their belief system
There are eight towers (some in a metaphorical sense) that stop all of reality... falling apart as far as I can tell
Many of these towers have been 'deactivated' or destroyed in some way (two during the Oblivion Crisis, Red Mountain erupted etc)
Snow-throat is one of the last (potentially the last active) tower, and is damaged somehow. What the stone is, is unknown (I'm thinking possibly the Jagged Crown, as it acts in a similar manner to other stones)
This is why the Thalmor are stirring trouble in Skyrim. Disunity there gives them better access to the tower?

As the people who actually follow the lore know, all the events of previous games match up to the prophecy in the Book of the Dragonborn. In the last line, however:

When http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Imperial_Simulacrum takes its place at the eight corners of the world (Arena, 8 pieces of the staff)

When the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Anumidium walks and http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Warp_in_the_West_%28event%29 (Numidium, in Daggerfall)

When the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Tribunal fail and the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Red_Mountain http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Vvardenfell#Red_Mountain_Eruption (Either Morrowind or one of the expansions if I remember correctly?)

When the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Septim_Dynasty http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Oblivion_Crisis, and the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Third_Empire falls (Oblivion: the Septim dynasty, heirs to Talos, are wiped out, and the Amulet of Kings is destroyed, deactivating that tower)

When the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Throat_of_the_World lies http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Wars#The_Stormcloak_Rebellion (Skyrim: the high King is dead, this description implies this tower can still be saved (and also points towards the Jagged Crown being the stone)

The http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Alduin wakes, and the Wheel turns upon the Last Dragonborn.

Does the "Wheel" refer to the Wheel of Convention? Is this still referring to the end times, and that the Dragonborn has the potential to prevent this?

Well
1. The number of towers is really unkown, The Nu-Matia intercepts list 8 but more are implied to exist.
2. The wheel is Mundus, Lorkhan got the gods to make a smaller version of the wheel of "the immortal plane/Oblivion makes" so that spirits to find the Eternal I easier. Its basically saying the mortal realm turn to the last dragonborn to stop Alduin from eating the world AT THIS TIME.

» Tue May 08, 2012 2:22 am

It's a poetic turn of phrase, that bit about a wheel. Referring to the Aurbis.
Minor disclaimer about the tower theory (that you've got a good grasp of): It's pretty much a fan theory, and may or may not be accurate or well-founded. I like it, but just thought I'd throw that caveat out there.

» Mon May 07, 2012 10:36 pm

You're pretty much on the right track.

Read about the Wheel, the Tower, and the Secret gate http://www.imperial-library.info/content/tower.

» Mon May 07, 2012 11:28 pm

Minor disclaimer about the tower theory (that you've got a good grasp of): It's pretty much a fan theory, and may or may not be accurate or well-founded. I like it, but just thought I'd throw that caveat out there.

Well the fact that a in-game book mentions it prettry much confirms it.

» Mon May 07, 2012 4:29 pm

You're pretty much on the right track.

Read about the Wheel, the Tower, and the Secret gate http://www.imperial-library.info/content/tower.

This really is blowing my mind, this lore goes far deeper than I ever imagined. I'll have to return to this tomorrow and try and grasp it better, been awake too long already.

It's a poetic turn of phrase, that bit about a wheel. Referring to the Aurbis.
Minor disclaimer about the tower theory (that you've got a good grasp of): It's pretty much a fan theory, and may or may not be accurate or well-founded. I like it, but just thought I'd throw that caveat out there.

I didn't mean to try and present any of it as fact, my bad, I know a lot of it is theoretical.

I'm really enjoying all this background stuff, if anyone else has anthing to add please do.

» Mon May 07, 2012 8:29 pm

Except the Wheel is a Telescope.

» Mon May 07, 2012 3:36 pm

You have the right idea.

Well the fact that a in-game book mentions it prettry much confirms it.

Though a lot of in-game books are written to be taken with a grain of salt.

» Tue May 08, 2012 4:05 am

You have the right idea.

Though a lot of in-game books are written to be taken with a grain of salt.

Very true but the amount of concidence, and the fact Oblivion's plot simply doesnt work without the towers, kinda makes it hard for it not to be true.

» Mon May 07, 2012 7:09 pm

Except the Wheel is a Telescope.

One lens is faulty. Looking for expert in aldmeri mythoptics

» Mon May 07, 2012 6:32 pm

If one stacks the wheels, assuming the vertical plane is time, there is a tower of the various Kalpas.

At least, this is a stupid headcanon idea.

» Mon May 07, 2012 9:46 pm

I kinda like it. i'm under the impression that the original cosmic "I" tower gets taller each kalpa. Everyone (or anyone?) that ever achieved CHIM becomes part of it. One of many bricks. or few bricks. Not sure

» Tue May 08, 2012 2:13 am

I don't know if you can actually stack the Wheels because there may only be one that keeps rebuilding itself. Also every kalpa is the same, save that one thing that's still being withheld from us.

» Mon May 07, 2012 5:25 pm

I don't know if you can actually stack the Wheels because there may only be one that keeps rebuilding itself. Also every kalpa is the same, save that one thing that's still being withheld from us.

isnt it obvious?

It's the shirt Lorkhan wears before he tricks the gods.

sometimes its red, sometimes its blue, eaither way he still always wears a fantastic shirt.

» Mon May 07, 2012 3:50 pm

You also forget that Talos is the only thing holding reality together which is decreased as people stop worshipping him as the Thalmor want. Something for Empire supporters to think about.

» Mon May 07, 2012 10:07 pm

You also forget that Talos is the only thing holding reality together which is decreased as people stop worshipping him as the Thalmor want. Something for Empire supporters to think about.

Which is exactly why someone should fight for a untied Empire so when they start the new great war they can be at greater strength and beat The thalmor easier.

» Mon May 07, 2012 11:29 pm

It's a red shirt, and it's a trick. He dies last.

» Mon May 07, 2012 10:02 pm

I wonder if Talos is undoing the Kalpic cycle and has built a Divine Tower which he is the Heart of to secure Mundus. A stray thought inspired by a likely meaningless design.

» Tue May 08, 2012 12:59 am

Talos isnt undoing the cycle he is holding it back

Talos that is Lorkhan reborn want the motal races to find the eternal I but if the Kapla gets reset so does thier progress

» Mon May 07, 2012 7:44 pm

Talos isnt undoing the cycle he is holding it back

If he holds it back indefinitely, the cycle is undone. Accepted, we cannot know that he will, I simply and unwarrantedly extrapolated.

» Mon May 07, 2012 9:02 pm

I don't think resetting the kalpa is a failure of Talos/Lorkhan. After all, many kalpas have happened in the past; meaning that the 8 that gave away their divinity to create Mundus have been unsuccessful breaking the cycle. However, that's going on merrish belief that the Aedra were tricked and are trying to escape in the first place. Lorkhan always wins if he gets Mundus created every time.

» Mon May 07, 2012 3:07 pm

I don't think resetting the kalpa is a failure of Talos/Lorkhan. After all, many kalpas have happened in the past; meaning that the 8 that gave away their divinity to create Mundus have been unsuccessful breaking the cycle. However, that's going on merrish belief that the Aedra were tricked and are trying to escape in the first place. Lorkhan always wins if he gets Mundus created every time.

According to Human belief the aedra let thier powers be taken away each time so Lorkhan can give mortals another chance at CHIM.

» Tue May 08, 2012 3:01 am

According to Human belief the aedra let thier powers be taken away each time so Lorkhan can give mortals another chance at CHIM.

Right, it just depends on the angle of the story. Humans see the cycle as something by design for our benefit, while Mer want to see the cycles broken and a return to the Dawn without the possibility of mortality and humans ever to happen again.

» Mon May 07, 2012 10:40 pm

Right, it just depends on the angle of the story. Humans see the cycle as something by design for our benefit, while Mer want to see the cycles broken and a return to the Dawn without the possibility of mortality and humans ever to happen again.

Well Vivec says Lorkhan did it for the benefit so I would think he did.

One does not question vivec.