But see, a true Nord wouldn't think that, nor would a god be so forgiving. They're gods after all.

He truly does love Skyrim. But sometimes an over zealous love only harms the one you love.

Shouldn't this be in the spoiler section?

Anyway... People assume that a Stormcloak victory means Skyrim going it alone, but that is never the intent. Ulfric says "Skyrim will lead all of Tamriel..." He does not envision fighting alone. It will be hard to make peace with Cyrodiil after this, but if Hammerfell can do it then so can Skyrim. Cyrodiil needs to stop trying to dominate/ use/ abuse its neighbors and start working with them, as free equals.

I'm supporting the Stormcloaks and uniting all the Nords.

If that makes me a fool then so be it.

No one can see the future and all you Imperial loyalists will be dealt with in time.

Indeed..

The true evil here is the Thalmor, not Ulfric, not the Empire.

I think that Ulfric is being a fool by not supporting the Empire, because the true evil in all this is the Thalmor..

Very true...I cant see the Empire nor the Stormcloaks wiping out the Thalmor...Not in their current situations. In the greater scope of things, the Empire/Stormcloak war was rather unnecessary and trivial..Regardless of which side wins, all of Tamriel loses in the end. Victory for either side will be short-lived. I have to admit, the Thalmor played their cards masterfully from the very beginning.

He doesn't even allow Argonians into his city. Dark Elves live in a ghetto sanctioned by them. If he is high king, his leadership of Tamriel is murky at best.

Definitely, the Thalmor planned this one out beautifully. They can still win either way.

Not really, A bear without Eyes still has brain functions, a Dragon without a head is just dead.

Indeed..

Ulfric loves Skyrim, but he wants power, and is incredibly racist !

But i think the Empire is being a Thalmor puppet....

I don't know what to think anymore, argh !

Even re Talos worship, it was the empire's fumbling and weakness that led to this result. They gave a mealy-mouthed promise that if Ulfric took Markarth for them (no doubt wanting all that silver), they'd allow Talos worship in the city. Then it turned out their elven overlords objected, so they caved and imprisoned the men who won the city for them, wrote The Bear of Markarth for CYA purposes, and started letting the Thalmor crack down on Talos worshippers. That collaboration is honestly so distasteful to me that I don't think I can ever side with the imperials. Time and again Titus Mede decides to bleed his own people in order to keep up his false peace.

Religion is NOT a non-issue. The divines in Tamriel are real. Religion is not just a social construct in this universe. Talos is the most powerful being in TES, and by helping the Thalmor lessen his place, the empire is serving the Dominion its #1 priority on a silver platter.

Imperials- Think about Hitler and the SS. They and the Imperial Legion go together like bread and butter.

Stormcloaks- Think about the Confederacy back in the U.S. Civil War except without the racism. Racism was all across the states but politics lead youth to believe the war was over racism in the south when factual history shows it was everywhere. Anyways........... The SC's were like the Rebs... stubborn, stuck in their own ways, crappy weaponry and terrible communication.

Indeed...I see major war in Tamriel's future...The window for Tamriel's survival is quickly closing. The Thalmor have all the pieces in place and need to make only a few more moves until checkmate...not to mention Tosh Raka is still building his army of Ka Po' Tun in Akavir and also has his sights set on Tamriel once he's defeated the Tsaesci. Tamriel will have it's darkest days in the coming years..

Am I the only one not bothered that Ulfric doesn't like the Elves or the Beastfolk?

TES 6 ? ^^

I agree with the OP. I joined the Legion thinking ahead. Nobody would like the White Gold Concordant, but it, as well as peace between the two nations, won't last forever.

Oh man, I forgot all about the Ka Po'Tun. Ouch.

I have been teaching this since the announcement of the civil war factions. And yet the rebel scum are too ignorant to see the power of the Empire.

If you think the Thalmor will allow the Empire to recover it's military strength after the Great War, you're the fool.

Aye, I'm bothered by his racism, for my character is Dunmer...but feelings of racial superiority from an old Nord are the least of my worries right now. His feelings towards other races could change over time...if not, I'm sure he'll soon be serving Sithis in the void, courtesy of the Dark Brotherhood.

At least the dragon has a soul. A bear is just a beast, governed by instinct and emotions. One might argue, what good is a head with nothing in it? But that's just courting the same racism Ulfric shows for all he considers pawns in his little white supremacist power grab.


Skyrim doesn't have the resources to go it alone. As it is they have to support one another with resources from neighboring townships just to keep the fires burning. Any real conflict, like a full force Dominion incursion, with some well-placed magics to torch the winter stores of food and lumber, and the Nords are routed.

Without supply line support from Cyrodiil, all Ulfric's dreams of uniting Tamriel under the banner of rugged white supremacist determinism is worse than if it were unified under the gold banner of the Thalmor.

The "Spirit" of what they are doing is counter-productive. True, the Empire has made mistakes, but those making them were HUMAN. The SPIRIT of the empire is still the right path. Corrupt as the Roman Empire became, it's collapse only led to chaos which brought about the long centuries of hell we call the "dark ages."

Every man for himself NEVER wins. It is easier to conceive in the sort term, but it is a backwards step for humanity.

I'm not bothered because everyone in TES universe is racist. The Imperials think they're the divines' gift to humanity, they're just more adept at exploiting the other races than Ulfric is. He'll learn. He also has political realities to keep in check- keeping Nords happy and keeping Argonians and Dunmer from each other's throats.

Both sides are gray, with good and bad people. There is no "good" option...but if there is one, it certainly isn't the empire.

I was initially going too side with the Stormcloaks, but the more I interacted with them, the more they seem like racist and ultra-nationalistic war criminals to be. Pardon me for using a rl character in this, but Ulfric seems a lot like Slobodan Milosevic.

I need to go to bed now, it's been a really fun chat with you, TheCasualAssassin, and Hoki. Thanks for the polite debate. I hope this topic is still going tomorrow, I've enjoyed it.